Carolyn, Its not just in GSDs, I have this problem in a lot of all breeds with terriers and poodles that i have been paid to show. I have, and I wish I wouldn't have to reveal this, judges come up to me and say, "how do you really go over a standard poodle, I don't want to mess up its hair..." ( I'm thinking, you're the judge.. shouldn't you know? (yes, they should, but they don't). 2. Oh this is a new westie here you are showing, is it any good?? You're the judge, you tell me If its any good. Yes, I understand each breed has its own nuances, but if you are provisional, that should tell me that you did your homework and are familiar with this breed. However, lets place SOME (not all) the responsibility on the handlers these people are going to. Many of them "pimp" certain dogs and tell you its a great one. One terrier handler, who has shown a top winning welsh terrier each year will tell you its a great one, and NOT A SINGLE DOG LOOKED LIKE THE LAST ONE. However, hes the one who puts a lot of effort into judges education and he will secure a good win at the group or BIS level and of course, a person, who is not familiar with the breed, may think, "this is the type of dog I am looking for". A long time ago, I handled soft coated wheatens for a very dear, sweet lady and her daughter. They had tons of money and often bought and co-bred litters of Norfolk, welsh, Kerry blues etc without having to do much work. Later on, after she went strictly into horses, I noticed she was doing breed assignments at the national, Great Western, Montgomery County, Westminster and later on the Group at Westminster... People said, "oh shes a great terrier woman". They honestly think it, and out side the one breed, she never really did any of the work except write a check. Did it make her "qualified" yes. Did it make her a good judge.. NO. A long time ago, when I was an assistant and got to visit with a great handler named George Ward, we talked about judging. I asked Mr. George when was he going to quit handling and start judging. He said he would never do it, because the AKC puts too many restrictions on judges and not enough education. He said they make you play the game rather than letting you judge dogs. Mr. George also said that he felt if anyone wanted to become a judge AKC should let them, but there would be 2 requirements. (1) you personally would have to put a dog of that breed in the ring. you didn't have to win, but you would have to condition, groom and show it... so that way when you have people who say, "poodles shouldn't be shown without hair spray" or I don't know why they show GSD's that fast, I like them controlled". you'd have a different opinion. (2) if you messed up and didn't get it right 4 times based on the general consensus of your entry and akc rep, your card was taken. Period. Cruel but seems more pragmatic. Mike ====================== www.BlackHawk-Farms.com Northern California American Saddlebred Horse Association Vice President (Class of 2007) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================