OMG!!! I really can't believe you are discussing shoulder, shoulder layback and upper arms and whatever from pictures. I sure hope you are not picking your studs from looking at pictures. Geeezze I sure have a lot to learn because I don't have that kind of talent. I have heard people make statements about a dog from pictures and then saw them move and put there hands on the dog and realize they were wrong. Keep in mind the angle and lighting, dogs markings also have a lot to do with how the dog looks in pictures. That also includes how the outline looks. I personally need to see the dog in flesh and watch him move or at least see a video. JMHO. Louie ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================