Tom I think where Chuck is misunderstanding what was written in [what was the name of the book STEPs??.] when it refers to the 30 degree angle the LAY ON is 30 degrees on a well LAID back [ 45 degrees] shoulder she is speaking of a correct shoulder. where the scapula is of a correct length which it would have to be to lay on at a 30 degree angle. I am sure you know the 45 degrees comes from drawing an imaginary line through the center of the scapula to the ground and there it would form a 45 degree angle.If the lay back angle were 30 degrees it would place the top of the scapula somewhere in the middle of a rib. Oblique =- lying at a slanting angle=lay on. Fred Migliore ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================