Yes, there are exceptions to every rule...and there are certainly dogs that are not clean coming and going that do not end up breaking down...and no, not necessarily "locked-up", but breaking down. But a majority of those who are not clean coming and going DO break down. So, what I am saying is that a Judge from inside the ring that only has a few minutes to decide does not know if the unclean dog they are looking at is an exception or not. So, my opinion is that judges should sway toward the cleaner animal (because more times than not, those animals DO break down)...UNLESS the cleaner animal is far less in quality, movement etc. If the cleaner animal has Good, but not great movement, it should win. If it has poor movement it shouldn't. It's easier for outsiders to see a dog several times or for hours being worked at a show...but a judge only has a few mins to figure out which dog best fits the Standard. The Standard calls for Correct movement from all angles. So, I am sorry but faults of gait from any angle, as specifically stated in the standard IS a serious fault. JMO, Jeff -----Original Message----- From: edangsd@xxxxxxxxxxx To: caggra@xxxxxxx; cudjoegsd@xxxxxxxxxxx; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 11:53 AM Subject: Re: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Return to Canine Discussions Jeff, I am not talking about dogs with locked up rears, I am talking about dogs that look clean from the side and open at both ends. I have had and do have dogs that aren't perfectly clean, but they open up and they will look the same at the end of the day. They could herd circles around a clean coming and going short stepping balanced dog and don't lose function even after hours of moving. Many of our great dogs in this breed have fit this description and have been utilized very effectively into many top breeder's programs. I do like a pretty dog though . Ann caggra@xxxxxxx wrote: The only problem I have with this Ann is that judges (especially at all breed shows) only have 2-3 minutes or so to look at the dogs. So, in those few minutes the coming and going may not affect the dog's movement from the side.....but those dogs who are not clean coming and going - Take them to herd Sheep all day long or to our National Specialty and see what happens to them after a few laps around the big ring. More often than not it WILL affect their movement from the side. How many times have we all seen a dog come into a National or a Specialty looking like a star....then a few laps later they break down? There are quite a few like this. So, while I certainly like a good sidegaiting dog....I just think we do have to look from all angles. JMO, Jeff Pyle -----Original Message----- From: edangsd@xxxxxxxxxxx To: cudjoegsd@xxxxxxxxxxx; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 10:30 AM Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Return to Canine Discussions D.D. I guess it would matter to me what movement faults we are talking about. The most extended sidegaiting dog would win under me, even if they weren't totally clean. I once had an all breed judge say that he didn't fault coming and going as long as it didn't affect the movement from the side. Definitely not your typical all breed judge, who can only look at coming and going, even if they can't move at all from the side. I like beautiful type too, so if they were pretty close in side gait, the pretty one would win, but they would have to be very close. Ann Cudjoegsd wrote: In Dave Rinke`s Judges Seminars and the resultant CDs, his theme in evaluating a German Shepherd Dog is "Does it look like a German Shepherd, does it act like a German Shepherd and does it gait like a German Shepherd? I enjoy attending Dave`s seminars and learn something each time. For a change of pace from the last thread on the List, I would like to ask the following question: How would you evaluate/place a dog who looks and acts like a GS but is faulty in gait against a dog that acts and gaits like a GS but in not as typey as the first dog? Each one has two out of three of the main characteristics of a GS but which one of the missing ingredients is more important? Type vs function. Hope this stimulates a civil and educational discussion as it was intended. D.D. ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================ Ann , Home of Sel Ex Ch Mechanical Bull and #1 Dam I've Got It All ROM Breeder-Owner of 62 Champions and 18 ROMs www.edangsd.com ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================ ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================ Ann , Home of Sel Ex Ch Mechanical Bull and #1 Dam I've Got It All ROM Breeder-Owner of 62 Champions and 18 ROMs www.edangsd.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================