AMEN Zoa!! .I'm sure not as confident of having all the answers about someone else's lines as some. In actuallity I don't think any of us own a dog that is NOT related to either the same lines some have in mind........or to other lines that have had dogs that bloat. In all the years we have been breeding I do not know of one single pet that we bred that ever had bloat! NOT ONE!! We have placed many many MANY more pets over the years than we ever will show dogs....and we stay in contact with most pet owners.......and you KNOW they would be the first to tell you if there is any kind of health problem! <G> Almost all come back for another pup and tell you how they lost their old doggie or call to let us know. NOT ONE to bloat........YET......<G> But I cannot predict the future. We have however had a couple of show dogs from our stud and other lines that were lost to bloat. Those that did.......all had or still have parents and siblings that lived long full lives with NO health issues ever. As Paulette and Sally have stated......strong working lines also deal with it.....but the working line handlers are not on the List talking about it......they are though often doing the surgery on the dogs FIRST. They will also tell you that if the dog has gone through high intensity training........or suddenly confined and not training and working for whatever reason.... but kenneled or kept away from their job........that is the time that they literally "expect" them to bloat. I've said before on the list......I have a friend with STRICTLY strong working German lines....and she lost a bitch to bloat during a breeding 'tie'......I also have a neighbor with a German dog that had seizures. I'm sure the same can be said of almost any breed........or "line". I am not ready to condemn anyone or any "line" for losing a dog to bloat. If we can do that.....then PULEEZE find me the lines that have never........nor never will bloat or torsion. Lets quit pointing fingers and admit there are problems and donate DNA and work to resolve it and help with the research. While you are searching out lines that you 'know of' that had a case of bloat...keep a good eye on your next star...........cause somehow .......somewhere........they are related .......... Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.Marhaven.com Until a genetic link has been proven, which it has not, I'm not sure it does any good to talk about prevalence in lines. That's just guesswork. I have to see some solid research on that before I would be ready to start calling people liars and condemning their breeding practices. A pattern does not necessarily establish causation. I would rather contribute a little money to research, and hope many others were contributing as well, than play some totally unproductive blame game. I want REAL answers based on HARD SCIENCE, not CONJECTURE that just causes HARD FEELINGS!!! JMO Zoa Dr. Zoa Rockenstein www.riverrockshepherds.com -- From: cnnpmm2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx If bloat appears to be more prevalent in the show lines, why is it the military requires a prophylactic Pexy (stomach tacking) be performed on all dogs entering the canine corps? They must have a reason for doing this and most of these dogs are not from our American show lines. I think the problem is across the board -- pet, show, working, American/European lines. Paulette McGuirt, GSDCA Member ****************************************************************** From: "sally" <dan-ann@xxxxxxxx> Not necessarily just a show line problem. But it sure seems like it has become more prevalent in those lines. And it seems to happen more frequently. it may seem line show lines because people here do talk about it - how many pet people and non-show people do you get to talk to - Look at the size of this list. Sally ************************************************************ Sorry, I'm not getting that feeling across the board from other lists. They seem to think it's more prevalent here too. Any way, aren't a lot of pets show lines, too? Which would bring up the point about the stress of being on the road as a factor of bloat. How would that factor in with pets? But that's not the point, the point is prevalence in lines. And I bet there are particular lines across the board, in every brand of gsd, and every dog that have higher percentages than others. Denise W. http://www.showgermanshepherds.info ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. 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