[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Peter gree--Westminster
- From: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx
- To: cnnpmm2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, VPREZHMF@xxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 18:40:40 EST
I'm cool with it. If a dog isn't top in their breed, then they don't
deserve to be in the Group @ Westminister. I thought the whole thing was
handled
w/ a lot of class.
Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
Celebrating generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions
visit www.geocities.com/pinehillgsds
In a message dated 2/18/2009 6:14:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
cnnpmm2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
Thanks for posting this, Helen. While I admire Peter Green doing what he
felt he must do, I do question the sportsmanship of the owners whose dogs were
dismissed...
<< For some, it isn't worth the risk of getting excused but for others, if
a dog makes that great Breed Win at the Garden or some other prestigious
show, it's worth it even if it can not be judged by the Group judge. >>
I do have a problem with the above because I'm thinking of the other dogs
competing in the Breed. I just don't think I could enter a dog in hopes of
taking Breed at the Garden, or any other show for that matter, *knowing* that
my
dog could not be judged by the Group judge. To me, that BOB win just isn't
worth keeping another dog from possibly doing well in the Group. I would
feel as if I cheated someone.
Perhaps this is just my "Pollyanna" persona surfacing, but how do you guys
feel about this? Am I just being naive here?
Paulette McGuirt, GSDCA Member
Wellborn-Allemande German Shepherds
Qui Me Amat, Amat et Canem Meam
----- Original Message -----
From: <VPREZHMF@xxxxxxx>
To: <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009 4:32 PM
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Peter gree--Westminster
The list discussed this after Westminster so thought I'd let you all see
the
answer Helen
EXCUSED AT WESTMINSTER DOG SHOW
Barbara J. Andrews, Editor
Disqualified? No. The Airedale and the Cairn Terrier excused by Peter
Green, Westminster Kennel Club Terrier Group judge. Go behind the scene
with Mr.
Green.
02|12|09| Everyone was speculating about the "disqualification" of two
dogs
by Judge Peter Green during the Terrier Group Judging. We had dozens of
emails either breaking the news to our offices or asking "what really
happened?"
Imagine the buzz about Mr. Terrier himself, Peter Green having excused or
disqualified two outstanding terriers!
In response to all the inquiries, we decided to clarify basic AKC rules
here. We reached Peter on Monday and will add his comments but due to the
confusion about what a judge can or can't do, let's cover that first.
The Cairn and the Airedale were excused but not because Ernesto used to
work
for Peter Green. The judge told the Airedale handler he should have known
"I can't judge your dog." The handler seemed to expect it and promptly
gaited
the dog down the length of the ring and out the gate. When he turned to
the
Cairn on the table, Peter Green told the handler he couldn't judge the dog
due to conflict of interest and also invited him to gait the Cairn to the
exit
gate.
Mr. Green did not disqualify or excuse either dog for reasons being
reported
on the internet.
Disqualify: A judge will disqualify a dog when, in the judge's opinion, the
dog has a specific fault listed in the breed standard, for biting the judge
or anyone else in the ring, for having been artificially changed in
appearance, etc.
Excused: A dog can be excused if it is unmanageable, ill, lame, ineligible
due to weight or age, or the judge is unable to examine it. The reason for
excusal must be clearly stated in the judge's book.
Regarding conflict of interest, which was Mr. Green's reason for excusal,
some things, of necessity, are not specifically spelled out in the AKC
rules
and must therefore be a matter of common sense and (no pun intended) good
judgment. Iâ?Tve known Peter for 30 years and he is always the gentleman,
always
proper in and out of the ring.
At a show the size and scope of Westminster, there are many dogs shown to
judges with whom an owner or handler has been close over the years,
including
having at some time been employed by that judge. There are time
limitations
specified by AKC in order to avoid any appearance of impropriety, such as
showing a dog to the person you bought it from a few months ago. Ernesto
was
indeed one of his assistant handlers but Peter has been judging longer than
the
employer-association limit. Although that was the most cited reason on the
internet, it isn't so.
It could be very difficult for a Judge to know who owns an exhibit. Dogs
are often bought, sold, or co-owners added. To be absolutely bullet-proof,
judges would have to spend more time studying magazine ads than expanding
their
knowledge of dogs.
Many such situations place a great burden on judges. Struggling to
remember
how long ago someone worked for you or who could be said is your good
friend, could detract from the judgeâ?Ts job which is to sort out the
virtues and
faults of the dogs and place them in that order. Perhaps the British
system of
"just judge the dog" and do it well is the best system. Granted, England
is
a much smaller country, everyone knows everyone, and they could also be
expected to have more extraneous information about the dog itself. But
judges
show to someone they may be judging the next month, friends show to
friends, and
The Kennel Club (England) system is one of the most respected in the world.
If however, an AKC judge perceives a potential conflict, it is up to the
judgeâ?Ts discretion whether or not to excuse the dog or judge it according
to its
merits, as he or she will judge every other dog in the ring. The least
likely way out of a difficult situation but one which does occur, is to
withhold
an award from the dog.
But here are the facts relating to the Airedale and the Cairn, direct from
Peter Green. Those who have been in the sport long enough will remember
when
many professional handlers (the real ones, not the 10,000 "agents"
superintendents have to put up with now) owned large kennels. Bob and Jane
Forsyth come
easily to mind. Such handlers had to make a hard decision about moving on
to judging because in order to do so, they had to sell the kennels which
for
many, represented a lifetime of work and a good income. But sell they did
until as Peter explained, AKC came up with a fair solution.
The handler was allowed to maintain property ownership in order to sell at
a
later date or pass on to their heirs. They couldn't be involved in the
kennel business but they could lease the kennel operation to someone else.
And
who better to lease it to than a man who had learned the boarding,
grooming,
training business from the inside out?
Peter told us that Ernesto leased the business and resides in the house on
the next property. There is a big sign which states "any dog boarded here
can
not be shown to Peter Green for one year" or something close to that. (I
don't take shorthand.)
Peter said the owners simply wanted their dogs shown at Westminster and
entered under the breed judge. He said this question is not new to judges
or
owners. For some, it isn't worth the risk of getting excused but for
others, if
a dog makes that great Breed Win at the Garden or some other prestigious
show, it's worth it even if it can not be judged by the Group judge.
So when the Airedale and the Cairn won their respective breeds, all
involved
knew that Mr. Green would not judge the dogs in the Group ring. But the
owners had the honor of seeing their dog in the Westminster Kennel Club
Group
ring and millions of viewers got to see those two breeds well represented,
if
only for a few minutes. It would have been nice for home viewers if the
announcer could have explained that in maintaining the highest standards of
ethics, the judge excused the dogs due to a conflict of interest under the
AKC
rules.
We thank Mr. Green for his time. I wish the recorder had been ready as we
chatted a bit about mutual friends and judges, some of whom are no longer
with
us or are physically unable to put in those long hours standing, bending,
stooping, and walking the lineup.
Of Ric Chashoudian, Peter said he was a great judge but more than that,
"Ricky is a great teacher. He could be grooming one dog, an assistant on
another
and Ricky could tell you what he was doing and why and at the same time,
tell
his assistant exactly what to do next. He could explain things and he
knew
his craft so well, it's too bad he became unable to stand well enough to
continue."
We hope Ric can continue to teach the next generation of terrier men. (see
below) and that the presentation package will be maintained by true terrier
people. Peter, who by the way, will be judging Best In Show at Crufts
would
insist on it!
____________________________________
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is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any
kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN,
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POST is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
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