Before there was "science" people bred better dogs. Sure there were problems..just like now, science has cured nothing and in some cases has only served to muddy the waters, espeically with those who aren't capable of sifting through the information, weighing the pros and cons and making an educated choice based on knowledge of their own lines or the lines they are considering breeding into. If you let science govern a breeding program, you will be paralyized into doing nothing, or worse yet, the wrong thing in many cases. There is no perfect dog, either in phenotype or genotype, be it health or structure.Never has been, never will be. The comprehension of this information, plus a natural gift in understanding what dogs compliment each other will usually result in a person have a degree of success as a breeder. ----- Original Message ----- From: Zoa Rockenstein <zrockenstein@xxxxxxxxx> To: Hickoryhill <hickoryhillgsd1@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: rbuffdogs@xxxxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 16:16:34 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: P.R./ bad backs & rears & color People learn, and apply what they learn, in different ways. I think breeding is both an art and a science with an element of "crap shoot" thrown in. The science part (at least) deserves study IMHO! I am happy with the results of my breeding program so far, which has been based on intense study of the standard, gsd history, pedigrees, and a wealth of other information provided in books, seminars, etc. I have come a long way in four litters and am pleased with the results in the ring. You learn your way, I'll learn mine. No need to put people down for the way they go about acquiring knowledge! It sure beats ignorance! Zoa Dr. Zoa Rockenstein www.riverrockshepherds.com Home of: Ch. RiverRock's Hotel California HSAs CHIC (Callie), RiverRock's Straight From The Heart PT (Sera), RiverRock's Karla v. Kenlyn, Kenlyn's Nakita (co-owned with Kent Boyles), and RiverRock's Heart of the Matter (Luke, co-owned with Martha Simonett) ----- Original Message ---- From: Hickoryhill <hickoryhillgsd1@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: Zoa Rockenstein <zrockenstein@xxxxxxxxx> Cc: rbuffdogs@xxxxxxxxx; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 10:57:01 AM Subject: Re: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: P.R./ bad backs & rears & color Books are books..and breeding is breeding. If you read a book about surgery, it does not make you a surgeon. When you breed to the extreme, you keep only the puppies who reflect the desired trait. If you only get extreme, you keep the extreme and next breeding your breed to moderate. In breeding you have to think past the immediate and have a long term goal in mind, if not, you are not a breeder, but simply a person who has puppies. ----- Original Message ----- From: Zoa Rockenstein <zrockenstein@xxxxxxxxx> To: rbuffdogs@xxxxxxxxx, Hickoryhill <hickoryhillgsd1@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:50:22 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: P.R./ bad backs & rears & color This contradicts what I have read in some of the gsd books regarding breeding to extremes, so I am just asking for some clarification. What I have read is that breeding to extremes DOES NOT produce an average of the two---that what you get is some dogs with the extreme rear and some dogs with the mediocre rear. As someone who would like that middle ground, I would like to hear more on this. Thanks. Zoa Dr. Zoa Rockenstein www.riverrockshepherds.com Home of: Ch. RiverRock's Hotel California HSAs CHIC (Callie), RiverRock's Straight From The Heart PT (Sera), RiverRock's Karla v. Kenlyn, Kenlyn's Nakita (co-owned with Kent Boyles), and RiverRock's Heart of the Matter (Luke, co-owned with Martha Simonett) ----- Original Message ---- From: Kathy Tank <rbuffdogs@xxxxxxxxx> To: Hickoryhill <hickoryhillgsd1@xxxxxxxxxxxx>; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thu, September 30, 2010 9:34:39 AM Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: P.R./ bad backs & rears & color OUTSTANDING POST . You are right on all counts Christine. Why is it that we (collective) need black and what is supposed to be red on ALL of our dogs? What passes for red, has gotten ridiculous, but that is another subject. Dyeing across AKC venues in general is way out of hand, really, not just us. Anyway, I remember GVX Ruby, almost black and creme...didn't care, because that is one helluva moving bitch. How about Manny? Wow. I'd have a kennel full just like him, and not what you'd call "deeply pigmented"...same for Mary Mary. These dogs stood on their physical merits, color was an aside, still should be, unless you start getting into faults. What I DO love about our dogs is the VARIETY of colors. There is something to suit everyone. Your mention of breeding to extremes is also spot on. Not only extreme in front or rear , but bone, heads, coats etc., Nature will gravitate towards the middle generally speaking. You need a little "holy cow" in there to keep desired attributes. Kathy *http://www.victorygermanshepherds.com*<http://www.victorygermanshepherds.com/> *Home of: CH. Elvaston's Nations Cup TC, 26 BOBs CH. Victory's Leviathan CH. Garter's E-Male of Fran-Jo Anne Isle * * "Victory...*Vires et honestas" On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 7:20 AM, Hickoryhill <hickoryhillgsd1@xxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote: > Carolyn to this I might add that rich color is certainly preferred but not > a must. As our standard says " GSD's vary in color.." Also note that maybe > two sentences are used to describe color, thus giving the impression to the > reader that color is one of the least things to be concerned about in the > scheme of things. What "forces" people to dye dogs is the impression that > SOME judges prefer color over all other traits. If you have a superior > moving animal and you loose to a lesser because the pigment is "better," > either natural or enhanced, then you feel you need to level the playing > field to be competitive. I am not rationalizing this, or justifying this, > however it is a grave injustice to place pigment over all other attributes > espeically when our standard places little importance in it. In other breeds > chalking, and color enhancement are common. Tattooing is even common to > create the ideal makrings on the muzzle, in some breeds. Bottom line is that > color enhancement shouldn't be necessary and never was when I first started > in this breed..then suddenly and miraculously every dog was "black and red." > this is what happens when one faction governs the minds of nearly all. And > people wonder why our entries are so low????? > > ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2010. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in any post. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================ ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2010. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in any post. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================