[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: POSTS BY KATHALEEN AND ELLEN

  • From: janandmort@xxxxxxx
  • To: hickoryhillgsd1@xxxxxxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, rbuffdog@xxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sun, 01 Nov 2009 16:40:45 -0500

Thank you for the post and in my experience I have been satisfied with the 
overall temperament that I see in the ring when I judge. Perhaps the handlers 
know not to bring questionable temperament to me. 
Yes a dog can be conditioned but when you look at body language and what I call 
"the silver look" in the eyes you know what honey you have in front of you!!!
Morton

-----Original Message-----
From: S&C Grainger <hickoryhillgsd1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: janandmort@xxxxxxx; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; rbuffdogs@xxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sun, Nov 1, 2009 12:17 pm
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: POSTS BY KATHALEEN AND ELLEN








I did not see Kathleen's or Ellen's original post, however I did read Morton's 
and Kathy's  below.  I strongly agree with what Kathy has said below. Backs in 
my opinion are horrific. The days of the hard, short back and strong driving 
rears are for the most part behind us. Although I am forgiving of a young dog 
being a  rolly and loose, dogs out of the 12-18 class and older should not have 
rolly loose backs that look like accordions. I was taught that as the dog gaits 
around the ring, you should envision that a full glass of water could be placed 
on the dogs back, without spilling a drop!!

Motion is transmitted through the back, it gets lost in a weak back. A dog's 
back should look good at any speed, whether it be at a break neck trot or a an 
easy lope. Our breed is supposed to be athletic, not soft and mushy like a 
couch 
potato version of the breed. Athletes in ANY species are muscular, not much 
body 
fat, and have the overall appearance of being physically and mentally fit with 
ability to sustain a rigorous workout.The GSD should be able to endure 
extensive 
gaiting IF required whether it is 90 degrees or 30 degrees outside, in the 
ring, 
herding sheep or tracking down a criminal for miles. I will give breeders of 
import lines credit for keeping their dogs athletic, and in hard condition and 
not allowing their dogs to become "oompa-loompas" that are good for only a lap 
or two then start to come apart at the seams,often gaiting behind their 
handlers( who are actually more physically fit than the dogs they are showing) 
with tongues hanging
 down to the ground after only a couple of back to back laps around the ring. I 
do not want anyone to confuse the athletic dog with the "frantic" dog who gaits 
at only one blazing speed with the look of fear in his eyes. The athletic dog, 
in my opinion is sound in ALL aspects. Endurance should not be confused with 
fear and being frantic (running away from his handler), or because the dog 
hasn't been fed in a day or so  and someone is waving a turkey leg at him( ie, 
if I stand still for my temperament test and then run a couple of laps around 
the ring, I get fed.) When the pressure is on, the athletic dog will endure 
because of his mental AND physical soundness and of course his desire to 
please. 


The disagreement I have with Morton's post is that temperaments are better. I 
do 
not think they are better, I think they are MASKED better, IE with better 
training or whatever means. If you consistently have to deal with poor 
temperament, then you become and expert on how to mask it. it is a deception to 
think that a dog that just "stands there" like a pet rock is sound. If you are 
observant you will see many dogs who are just present and accounted for, with 
not much else to offer. Many exhibit  no zest for life, no happiness about what 
they are doing. When you look in their eyes they are vacant, no sparkle no look 
of intelligence.I would wager, that If you could take them off the lead in the 
ring and give them the option of leaving, they would beat a hasty retreat to 
parts unknown. 

 We have beat this dead horse a thousand times on the list. People nod their 
heads in agreement, but then breed to unsoundness anyhow, be it physical or 
mental.The trend in the last 10 years I feel has taken us down the path of 
creating a "style" of dog that is at its best standing with average movement 
that looks impressive when the dogs are energized and fresh, but starts to wain 
when the pressure is on a fatigue sets in. No one can deny that we have many 
dogs with over the top "breed type,"which I believe is beautiful as well. 
However,the last time I looked up the GSD standard, I found it in the herding 
group, NOT in the non-sporting group.There are other breeds in the herding 
group( as well as other groups) that have become caricatures of their original 
purpose...that is beautiful when posed, but not much in the way of correct 
motion, temperament or their ability to do what they were originally bred for. 
When breeding we have to consider all facets
 of the dog, temperament, motion, type( not style)and not just pick and choose 
which we want to adhere to and what we want to turn our heads to.I believe at 
one point we needed improvement in the area of breed type, however the pendulum 
needs to swing back to center a bit, so that we can maintain the improvements 
we 
have made, but now improve the areas we are faltering in( rear drive, 
forehands, 
strong backs and temperament) There will always be varieties in style. I do not 
think our dogs should all look the same. If that is what we believe, then we 
should do away with the Brackett award, which honors those breeders who have 
created a discernible "style" of dog. However as individuals we need to 
recognize where improvements in our own breeding programs are needed and we 
need 
to maintain a jaded and critical eye when it comes to our own dogs so those 
improvements can be made. The above is just my opinion, and I feel certain that 
it is entirely too long
 and politically incorrect, but since when have I been PC? C
www.hickoryhillgsd.com


--- On Sun, 11/1/09, Kathy Tank <rbuffdogs@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> From: Kathy Tank <rbuffdogs@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: POSTS BY KATHALEEN AND ELLEN
> To: janandmort@xxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Sunday, November 1, 2009, 10:25 AM
> I love the term "BUOYANT" Morton used
> to describe the gait we all so love.
> Yes transmission over a STRONG BACK....boy we saw tons and
> tons of long
> hocks, short steep croups, and
> rolling undulating "rumbling" loins and backs .  The
> white wall tells all.
> This seems to be the norm in the breed rather than the
> exception.  Since
> when are egregiously long hocks and all the lumbar movement
> acceptable?
> On the up side, we found on the whole better temperaments,
> and far fewer or
> maybe just better dye jobs.
> The racing was unnecessary.   It looks as
> thought "he who gets there first,
> wins".....which we know is not the original intent, but it
> gives that
> appearance.   Why so fast?
> Slowwwww is good.
> Again if we went slower we might well see more people being
> able to handle
> their own dogs.
> The only time I could see a GSD being required to
> demonstrate ground speed
> is in in pursuit of
> a stray calf or sheep or chasing a bad guy....and they
> wouldn't do either at
> a BLAZING trot...they would gallop.
> Of course many of the dogs can't do "slow" because their
> gait fails
> them...they cease to drive from the rear,
> reach in the front, and a sea serpent -like back becomes a
> glaring weak
> point.  At that point the race only dogs, look like a
> jalopy with square
> wheels.
> Yep, slow is good.
> Kathy
> http://www.victorygermanshepherds.com
> PUP-DATED:  OCT 5, 2009
> Home of:
> 
> CH. Elvaston's Nations Cup TC, 26 BOBs
> CH. Victory's Leviathan
> CH. Garter's E-Male of Fran-Jo Anne Isle
> 
> "En Victoria , Veritas"
> 
> 
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 3:26 PM, <janandmort@xxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > The gait should be BUOYANT --that is the animal should
> have spring in it's
> > gait with tremendous power from the hindquarter that
> is transmitted over the
> > strong back to the forequarter.
> > Thanks,
> > Morton Goldfarb
> >
> 
> 
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is Copyrighted 2009.  All material remains the property of the original 
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind 
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the 
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. 

ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY 
MANNER 
OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF 
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PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A 
VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. 

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============================================================================
POST is Copyrighted 2009.  All material remains the property of the original 
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind 
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the 
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. 

ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY 
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS 
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY 
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE 
PROSECUTED. 

For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx

VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org
NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/
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