Both of these are excellent e-mails, and I completely agree. The intellect of these dogs is superior to almost any other breed, Start messing around with the temperment and you have a real mess!! I have NO DESIRE to sell a shy puppy to anyone, I want to know that my pups can do anything asked of them with confidence. Breeders should not lower the standard of the BREED, but should raise the standard of the buyer. Morgan and His Angels Precious, OFA Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award "RAW" fed, No Vaccinations --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Cinosam GSD <cinosamgsd@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: Cinosam GSD <cinosamgsd@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Our Breeds in Society To: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, cherlyngsd@xxxxxxxxx Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 11:22 AM I'm not sure that I agree that modifying a temeperament for the average idiot has resulted in shy dogs. I think this comes from other bad breeding decisions unrelated to selling pet puppies. IMO If we are modifying temperaments for the general prublic.....it's creating the Lab temperament....(hi how ya doing...I'm so happy to be with you...see my wriggle around and just be happy). How may times do you hear people comment on how wonderful a dogs temperament is as it's licking and loving on the judge it just met during the temperament test and no judge that I've ever seen penalizes this....even though it is not correct for anything other than puppies. By doing this we may be saving face with the General Public and perhaps saving the breed from breed specific legislation...at what cost.....I don't know.......but I think there is a fine line in here somewhere...we just need to find it. Cindy www.cinosamgsd.com --- On Thu, 11/19/09, Lyn Chernak <cherlyngsd@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: Lyn Chernak <cherlyngsd@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Our Breeds in Society To: spotted101@xxxxxxxxxxx, marcatoshepherds@xxxxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 9:52 AM I have to strongly disagree with your comment to " MODIFY Temperament so we can sell to the average idiot." When you start to change something in your breeding program it will effect other areas. Too many breeders today have made softer temperaments in the dogs, we now see too much shyness and avoidance. A good, sound GSD, true to the standard in Temperament and character can and will display the temperament required for the situation providing that you do not sell to the average idiot! Just because the average person wants a GSD and has the money does not mean they are capable of owning a GSD or can take on the responsibilities. These are working / herding / thinking dogs, (many smarter then their owners) and need to be in homes that can understand that; yes they can be a family pet but they will also protect their home and people by instinct. These dogs need training, to direct their drive and energy towards positive areas. People / owners need the training so that they can understand and relate to their dog. There are people in this breed that still don't understand the GSD and should (for the sake of the breed) find another breed. If someone can not handle true and correct GSD temperament, then they should not own a GSD, but you do not modify they temperament to fit the average "idiot". Besides, in all litters there are those puppies that will be at each extreme, have the most drive and the least drive and those in between, know what you breed and where each would be best placed. Spend time with each potential puppy buyer and educate them, if need be, explain that a GSD is not what they really want. Lyn Chernak ~ CherLyn Shepherds ~ Three Generations ~ GSDCA 13 Club ~ Membership CherLyn's Dixie, BH, CDX, RAE, TC, HIC, CGC Ulric vom Kriegerhaus, RN, TC, CGC ________________________________ From: Jessica MacMillan <spotted101@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: marcatoshepherds@xxxxxxxxx; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 10:05:15 AM Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Our Breeds in Society As a person who has two breeds with lousy reputations (GSDs and Dals), I can tell you that unfortunately, whether or not we like it, we do have to change the breeds somewhat to fit society. No matter what we do, GSDs and Dals will still be high energy, strong, smart and need training. The goal as a breeder should be to MODIFY it so that the dogs have less prey drive, are less tough, less sharp and are more able to fit into our society as it is NOW - not 40 years ago or a 100 years ago.. These dogs have to live with neighbors 8 feet on either side, kids walking down the street, little dogs yapping through the fence, the FedEx guy and the insurance man.. I walk either breed down the street and I still have people who move to the otherside of the road because they are terrified that my GSDs or my Dals might bite someone.. THAT'S the image we need to get rid of whether it be by breeding dogs that aren't quite so tough or by public education. As my mom says "we are breeding dogs for the average idiot" - these are dogs where people CAN make a few mistakes, but not have to pay for it on the back end with a dog bite. But we still have to maintain the breeds.. We just need to take off the sharp edges. One thing I will tell you from personal experience. Although I understand the need for doubling, it really makes GSDs look like freaks at dog shows as they drag their handlers out of the rings, make all sorts of noises cause they can't stand at ringside quietly and can't stand for exam because they are so busy worrying about where mom or dad is... You know how all that looks to the average "Joe"... NOT GOOD... that and the fact that people don't like to see the dogs walking on their stifles is what JQP sees when he goes to all-breed shows. With the Dals we did the AKC RDOD/K9 Challenge - I had more SHOW people come up and comment on what wonderful temperaments the Dals had and how social they were - why? Because people are used to seeing two of the Top 10 Specials who are screwballs in the ring and try to bite kids and go after dogs outside the ring.. It isn't just the public that thinks these breeds are idiots - its the folks we show with too... We need to spend some time getting out with SHOW people and educating THEM also about the fact that Dals and GSDs are wonderful dogs. Time to get our heads out of the sand and start doing some PR for our breeds and PUREBRED dogs in general - DoG knows we need it! Jessica MacMillan Paisley Dals (www.paisleydals.com) & The Shepherd Girls (Simmie, CGC, TDI, TC, HIC & Pepper, HIC) Member of: DCA, GSDCA & GTCDC _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft's powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/ ===========================================================================POST is Copyrighted 2009. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ =========================================================================== ===========================================================================POST is Copyrighted 2009. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ =========================================================================== ===========================================================================POST is Copyrighted 2009. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ =========================================================================== ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2009. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================