I've enjoyed this discussion a lot. I talked to Peggy privately to better understand the Brittish KC thing and what I think I objected to was the KC 'seemingly' dictating to the breed clubs what their breeds should be. So far, in our relationship to AKC, the breed club owns the standard. I do have mixed emotions about breeds with health issues that are brought about by breeding into that health problem for show purposes - AND I will issue a disclaimer here - I do not own those other breeds and therefore it is presumptions to conclude that there is in fact a problem. If there is, then I have mixed empotion, but I will have to leave it to those involved to iron out whither or not there is. In our breed, there are some dogs with angles who have problems - locked hocks, mobility problems, etc., but those are not the norm nd are not caused by the slope of our dogs. I never want to see the GSDCA and AKC fighting over such issues. But the comments on this thread have been really good I think in that they define several things in our individual approach to our breed and what we are after. Just thought I should take one more shot.... I like a good hard GSD. I did not say sharp or mean, I said hard. I define that as a strong personality with a secure in-charge demeanor who will take care of business when it is necessary but who is accomodating of people in various situation without fear or agression. I think we do see a trend toward less 'hard' temperaments and dogs that are not secure and are thus more apt to bite. That is neither good for our image nor is it to the standard. That's my opinion! Secondly, I hear the call to make our dogs more acceptable to the public or at least to listen to public opinion in what we produce. It is that part of the Brittish KC note that I objected to. It is sort of the old, "1,000 Frenchmen can't be wrong" philosophy. Forgive me if you are French, no offense intended, it is just a phrase that came to mind from the past.... Well, they can be wrong and they are often wrong and in fact the swings of public popular opinion are most often wrong. It is true, our society has changed, our culture has changed, and our world is ever changing.... And I contend that our dogs have also changed. Physically they have become more angulated in their brief 110 year history. With that has come significent improvement in the hip socket. From the top three we have dropped to 39th - I just checked, Stormy was right! The statistics are arguable, we already discussed that, but the progress is certain. So if we have largly overcome our old number one problem and have a more angulated dog, what is the problem? It is not the dog, it is public perception - or am I crazy here? So I ask, should we contrast public perception that is uninformed against the progress we have made and change our breeding practices to please public perception? If we do then we are in fact altering our standard and our health objective to accomodate ignorance. Whither that ignorance is just public in general, Brittish KC in specific or AR driven, I am not of a mind to move with it. The standard is the dog and the dog is the standard, as Forrest Gump used to say, or was that Tom Langlitz. Oh my, I've said too much again! Dave ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2009. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================