[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Observances
- From: Bedkar <bedkar@xxxxx>
- To: d fritsche <d_fritsche@xxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 18:06:57 -0400 (EDT)
Dave, I think the problem is that "hock walking" has become sort
of a catch all phrase.....to most people (other than GSD folks)
, ALL GSD "hock walk" because of the acute angulation. They really do
not watch the joints and how they function, or where the feet end up at the
finish of reach and drive.
There is a large number of GSD now with fixed or locked hocks...
the opening and closing of the hock joint is minimal and they
literally do walk (and stand)on their hccks. For maxium power,
all of the joints (hip, stifle and hock) must have full range of
motion. If the foot can not extend past the rear edge of the hock,
then the movement and the power is marginalized.
So, even if an animal has a correct fore assembly, a mismatched
rear assembly will affect foot timing, stable toplines and a
fluid forward motion.
Hocks that are limited or fixed (sickle hocks, in some breeds) are
not functional and are associated with injury and fatigue.
Unfortunately, these dogs are frequently rewarded in ring.
This is not to be confused with the dog that can reach under itself
with the hock literally being flat on the ground; it is the ability
of the hock to extend on the final portion of the stroke (the finish) that makes
the difference.
So...in my opinion, there are hock walkers and they are angulated, it's
just not functional angulation. It's all about the flexibility.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Fritsche" <d_fritsche@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2014 1:28:47 PM
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Observances
Hock Walking. (forgive the detail and length of
post)
Had a conversation with a new GSD judge years ago.
We used to live near her and she raised Wolf
Hounds. Then she started showing them, then
judging them, and then wanted to extend her breeds
and so took the GSD test.
We met at a show on the coast and renewed old
acquaintances and she sat with us at the GSD ring
and started in. "I will not award anything to
those hock-walking cripples. Look at them. They
can hardly move." I was ready, because I had said
the same thing to a lady many years before. Here
name was Cappy Pottle.
Cappy simply turned to me and told me to hook up
her dog. I did. Then she went out a hundred yards
of so and told me to hold him, and don't let him
move. Then she called him. There I was like a baby
holding back a freight train - down the field I
went trying to regain my footing and finally the
snap on the lead broke. I'd had GSD's all my life,
but had never felt anything like that before. His
name was Quick, but it should have been Power
House.
So we went to the house and she showed me a video
and explained the transmission of power. Side gate
is not about aesthetics, it is about the
transmission of power. The maximum power is gained
by being in contact with the ground most of the
time, reaching out far in front and pulling back
and following through past the forward movement of
the hind quarter. The hind quarter similarly
reaches forward under the dog past the front
moving to the rear, and then propels the dog
forward with a smooth forward motion, ending with
the hock opened and extending to the rear.
The front foot should hit the ground at its
furthest extension to the front without having to
come down to find the ground (commonly called
'lifting'). The rear foot should move smoothly to
its rear extension, opening the hock but not
extending upward at the end of its full motion
(commonly called 'kicking up').
The objective of this range of motion is to
transmit the maximum amount of ground-covering
power with a minimum of steps. You can see it from
the side, the front, the rear and you can feel in
in the leash if you are handling.
The term 'hock walking' is a term usually used by
those who do not understand the transmission of
power. It comes from the appearance of the rear
hock extending well under the dog as the rear foot
grabs the ground for its rearward thrust. At that
point, the hock appears to be on the ground,
unless you look very carefully to find that it is
almost but not on the ground. It is simply the
range of motion available to the well-structured
dog who can use every joint and ever part of every
leg to transmit power forward.
Yes there are dogs who have faulty rears, and some
whose hocks hit the ground. You can tell from the
callouses on the hocks. Some dogs are lifty,
wasting motion, and others have locked hocks that
do not allow the rear to move fluidly with the
front. But more commonly it is a prejudice by
those who have come to prefer the upright square
dog who simply cannot move with smooth power.
Our lady friend and new GSD judge watched for a
minute and started counting steps. Sure enough the
dogs she was faulting were taking far fewer steps
than the lumbering dogs she had preferred. She
changed her mind after getting on the lead of one
of our dogs. Darn I love a great moving dog.
So forgive the length of this post. I like to talk
about movement - a lot!
-----------------
With regards to overangulation; nowhere in the
Standard does it say or imply that dogs should
walk with their hocks on the ground. This is a
development that has occurred over decades of
breeding...."a little angulation is a good...so a
lot must be better". There is nothing wrong with
the Standard and nothing needs to be changed; its
the breeders that produce these animals and judges
that put them up either A. because it is all they
see and all they have to choose form or B.they
think sidegait is more important than everything
else in the Standard which is not correct "Faults
of gait, whether from front, rear or side, are to
be considered very serious faults".
That is a completely different issue from changing
the Standard to accommodate coat and color
variations.
Cindy
On Monday, September 1, 2014 10:54 PM, Tina Klahn
<dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Carolyn,
You kind of just proved a couple of my points. I
very much refer to the standard because
temperament is critical in the standard, but I see
very few dogs that truly own the ground they stand
on. I repeat, please point me to where the
standard calls for the drastic slope in the top
line seen in modern ASL GSDs (45 or more degrees).
What about hocks on the ground when standing? All
things I see in some of the top winning dogs that,
in theory, should be top representatives of the
standard right? You're right that health isn't in
the standard, but that should really a given,
shouldn't it?
Again, I just don't see where color or coat length
are so important compared to those things. Maybe
ASL GSDs could benefit from the wGSD lines if
nothing more than the expansion of the gene pool.
If you don't want to breed to a white, that's
completely your choice. Others may appreciate the
addition of lines.
To me, the fears of white spotting, etc (which to
my knowledge really have nothing to do with the
masking gene) aren't valid. If someone can point
me in the direction of research proving the
masking gene and white spots are the same thing,
I'll happily apologize. :)
On a side note, if the posts have not been attacks
on one another, though I guess brutality is in the
opinion of the reader, then why has admin had to
shut so many threads down?
I wish the people who replied to me in private,
commending my words, would have done so public
because there have been many. I expressed what
many have been thinking and just didn't want to
risk posting.
Tina
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 22:25:25 -0500
> From: <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: Observances
>
> Having missed seeing the brutal attacks.....all
I can say is that this list of problems would
scare me enough to have second thoughts about
getting a sickly, spooky, dying GSD from dishonest
"crazy house" breeders.... and their Club.
> None of these problems listed has to do with
the Standard, but is the actual responsibility of
breeders of the GSD and those of us who post about
it.
>
> Genetic testing for color is hardly going to
solve the problem either.
>
> Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> www.marhaven.com
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POST is Copyrighted 2014. All material remains the property of the original
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Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its
administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in
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ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
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-Kay Reamensnyder and Betty Doerpinghaus
-Home of Bedkar German Shepherds
-AKC Breeders of Merit
- bedkar@xxxxx
-Visit our Website: www.bedkargsd.com
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Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its
administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in
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ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
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