In a message dated 11/27/2005 9:26:55 PM Central Standard Time, ELG440@xxxxxxx writes: Remember that Lance was an out cross ----------------------------------------------- Dania brought up the cross on the Osnabrukerland "R" litter. It should also be mentioned that a trace of Germany's lines will often go to that same litter, according to what I've read. When Lance was born, the breed was about 65 years old. (I don't have exact birth dates ... I'm rounding numbers off.) If we were to trace his pedigree back that far, we would find that in fact Lance, and any German Shepherd dog, is heavily backmassed on just a few dogs. So, if American GSD breeding continues on the same trend it has for decades, will we be able to declare our breedings to be "outcrosses" in the year 2030, even though all lines will still go to Lance? The reasoning is the same. There are no true outcrosses within breeds where pedigrees are concerned, and that fact is exaggerated by the reality that the GSD is a relatively young breed. The thing that people never think about is the reality that genes do not have brothers and sisters. If there is one simple gene for down ears, or any other particular trait, it is the same gene in brother and sister as it is in dogs of completely different breeds. Every dog has a sire and a dam and each sire and dam give a separate assembly of genetic makeup. If you start with one sire and dam, and then never breed out from the resulting progeny, you will likely be working with a fairly narrow gene pool. However, the moment you breed one of those progeny out to a less related dog, you will have most likely returned to the more diverse gene pool that you started with, but likely with a different mix of genes. It is not enough to trace a pedigree and see only how many times a dog goes back to any one particular dog. You must also consider the genetic input given by those hundreds of bitches who were bred to that stud dog. Tom Langlitz ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================