,It is a combination of both. You can take a soft temperament work with it and make it passable. Will it ever be a hero. NO You can take a really tough dog and teach it limits. Will this dog ever have a Golden attitude. NO The answer to the question is the reason for the breeding. Was the breeder looking to produce a working dog, or a dog that will win in the show ring. There is still an opinion that a dog with soft temperament shows better, that it is easier to get the dog UP with a doubler. Some of these dogs are wired so tight you could not stand to have them in the house with you. Do they win. sure they do. All they have to be trained to do is run in a circle and stand for exam. I have people who by dogs from me for competition in agility. Why?? They are smaller, faster, and love to work. Is this type of dog suitable for the average pet owner, probably not. These dogs need to work. I like living with this type of temperament. I did a breeding that I was sure was going to produce a litter that was over the top in drive 2 Germans with great temperament. What I got was a litter of males that, for the most part, were pretty reasonable dogs. One was down right lazy :0) When you do a breeding the only thing for sure you know you are going to produce is puppies. What a person can do is continue to support the GSDCA's temperament test program or the AKC's Canine good Citizen program. Bring dogs that are sound to the public eye. Insist on soundness in your breeding programs. Sell your pups on a must train contract. Breed a sound dog that you can be proud of. This is no time in the dog world for a breeder to be producing dogs that are not sound. We are fighting for our very right to own and breed our dogs. We have to produce the very best temperament we can because the AR'ers would not know front reach if they saw it but they sure as hell can see a spooky dog or a nasty dog when they see it. I have seen dogs dam near drugged to the show ring they hated it so bad. Why?? Do you think the dog cares if it is a Champion or not? Place that dog as a pet if it is sound in all other ways and find a dog that likes to show. Better yet take a look at your training program and try to figure out why the dog feels the way about the show ring. If it is a young immature dog give it time to grow up, educate it's mind. I have always wanted to know why some feel it is a good thing that a dog finishes before the age of 2. I don't even brother to show a male until it is a least 3. If it falls part at three it wasn't a good dog at 2 either. Terry Jessica MacMillan <spotted101@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: So here's some food for thought for everyone.. Where do the bad temperaments come from in the breed? Are the squirrelly dogs at shows genetically made up this way, or is it how they are raised? Is the bad rap that GSDs have with people in other breeds due to the fact that there are so many kennel dogs, lack of socializing, or genetics? Story: I have two shepherds that have always been indoor/outdoor "dogs"... They go camping, walking, riding in the car, through the bank teller, etc.. They both have titles and everywhere I go they get compliments that they don't act like Shepherds. It seems to me they act like very correct shepherds.. Smart, confident, willing, trainable and one step a head - much like dalmatians in many ways (proper dalmatians) As I told someone, when we added the second GSD, my mom gave me lots of grief because most of her experience with GSDs were many of the crazy dogs at shows (wild-eyed kennel dogs or dogs that were so frantic for their doublers). I told her that should wasn't allowed to make a judgement call like that until she got to know Pepper and Simmie.. She adores Simmie and Pepper because they are "dogs". Now she understands why I like the breed. So ponder this... Genetics or rearing.. Which is it in most cases? Jess Mac Paisley Dals (www.paisleydals.com) & The Shepherd Girls (Simmie, CGC, TDI, TC, HIC & Pepper, HIC) Member of DCA, GSDCA and GTCDC _________________________________________________________________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================ --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2007. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================