In a message dated 1/22/2007 9:59:51 P.M. Central Standard Time, psharp212@xxxxxxx writes: Every single judge that I know personally...and there are quite a few...look at quality, structure, movement, and temperament.. I don't know of one that would put up a dog, or place a dog back, because of color or color pattern!! Maybe for poor pigment, but, not primarily. Looking at your list, all I can say is that I have met Lee Brown, and I have shown under him; I didn't notice him placing dogs by color or color pattern. The other judges I don't really know, other than by reputation, and I think they probably judge the same way! I NEVER said that Lee placed dogs because of color. But neither does he penalize dogs because of color. We have shown many years in the all breed ring, as well as in specialties. At specialties I never worried about color, as long as my dog was not washed out. HOWEVER, at the all breeds, many judges place as much or more emphasis on breed type as they do on movement. And to many judges, a bi-color just does not look TYPY. They like the black saddle markings instead. We campaigned 3X Sel Scharo's Spellbinder heavily in the all specialty ring, taking him up to No 1 0r 2 specialty winning dog in 1991-92. Then we went to the all breed ring since he was so clean. He did very well, going to #2 male in the country. In '94 he was a multiple group winner and a Best in Show dog, but we could never get ahead of Heidleberg's Gabe. (Of course Gabe was shown twice as often) Gabe was not the mover, but was a good standard black & tan. I had all arounders actually tell me: 1. Your dog is too dark for the standard 2. Too bad your dog is so dark, I would have liked to put him up 3. You dog over reaches in front. The judges I named put him up in spite of his dark color. And Spellbinder was only a blanket black, not a true bi-color. Fondly remembering those years Carol ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - www.showgsd.org ============================================================================