[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Inbreeding - A tool to test the health of your line
- From: Robert Neiman <bnbgsds2000@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx, lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 07:55:57 -0700 (PDT)
As for multiple inbreedings ask Fred Migliore about his Ch.Eko-Lan's Quaser
sometime. He was inbred 2 times on his dams side then linebred back on his
sire. Talk about an interesting pedigree. If you compare Quasar (in)type there
is a big difference between him and Pal and Shiloh. Even though Pal was
linebred(Morgan to his aunt)and Shiloh was inbred(Morgan to his
daughter)neither one of them resemblied the other in type.
Bob Neiman / Walled Lake, Mich.
Owner Barkalot's Felonious Assault AKA Brat and the other half of B'N'B
Breeder/owner of UKC GR Ch.B'N'B-Barkalot's Cherish RN
Co-owner of UKC ChSandyCreek-B'N'B-WC's Christmas Star AKA Echo
Co-owner of Ketlyn's Black Widow
--- On Wed, 9/8/10, Lindenhill German Shepherds <lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
From: Lindenhill German Shepherds <lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Inbreeding - A tool to test the health of your line
To: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx
Cc: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, spotted101@xxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 9:44 AM
Good morning ;-)
Kathy you make great points, I can certainly say to some degree the risk is
much higher when breeding to the unknown than inbreeding
I guess the purpose of the thread was to understand that today, at least in my
opinion(and many of our most respected breeders in the past) use this tool to
learn more about what we have. Yes I agree it should only be used by those that
are confident about what they have. You've got to remember that inbreeding
brings out the best of the best, and the worst of the worst and yes you must be
prepared for that as a breeder and accept the risk.
some of the old timers say you can do it three times in a row(I'm not that
brave) but from a clinical point of view they will learn a great deal more
about what is hidden in that genealogical locker then the rest of us.
I know this is not your cup of tea, but that's your choice
Regards,
M
** my personal mantra - constantly resist being put in a box - of any kind **
----- Original Message -----
From: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx
To: lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, spotted101@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2010 8:00:09 AM
Subject: Re: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Inbreeding - A tool to test the health of your
line
Hi Mike,
I found the post that started this thread where you wrote:
"How many of you breeders perform an inbreeding occasionally to test the
vigor(Health/Longevity) of your line?
We do an inbreeding on each and every stud that we make available to the
fancy."
_____________________________________
My concern was and still is many issues don't surface until middle age or later
in our dogs. I listed some of those issues yesterday, no need to repeat them.
Yet, we know they are there if we study pedigrees.
Another concern that I have is that today, breeders can't and don't grow out
entire litters until well past middle age. The puppies, for the most part, that
we don't keep go to companion homes, and yes, you can keep track of them, but
that is small consolation to a family when a "bad" crops up. And yes, "bads"
crop up in out crosses to, but when you look at a pedigree and know the issues
contained therein, then do an inbreeding, you obviously increase the odds for
that particular "bad". And again, I reiterate, there isn't a pedigree w/o
genetic "bads" somewhere.
Furthermore, you'd have to repeat a litter many times to prove what it is that
you are trying to prove in the first place. How many times had you repeated a
litter and had entirely different results?
For example, if a dog breeds a bitch who had previously produced mega, and
there is a litter of six puppies w/o mega, it COULD mean he won't produce mega
it or it COULD mean you got damned lucky THIS time.
So, your assurance/confidence that a dog doesn't produce something after one
litter (even two or three litters) would, sorry to say, fall on my deaf ears.
Also, the thing w/ mega is, as AWFUL as it is when it crops up, you know early.
What if it's DM, epilepsy, GDV or Toxic Gut that we're talking about????
I agree with you that inbreeding will certainly show you what you have, but I
am not in a position to grow out entire litters and care and socialize them
properly. I'm also not comfortable saying to a companion home "we know certain
things can crop up in this pedigree, we bred a son back to his mother to see if
it would crop up or if perhaps we've gotten it out of our lines. Let us know
won't you?"
JMO obviously, and a good stimulating conversation <G>.
Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
Celebrating generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions
visit http://www.pinehillgsds.com/
In a message dated 9/7/2010 5:10:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:
Kathy Writes:
Well, I DO know my lines
Mike replles:
As do I
Kathy Writes:
...I asking how long YOU keep and grow out an entire litter that were produced
by inbreeding before YOU offer a boy to the public...like you said in an
earlier post, given that an awful lot of issues don't show up until later.
Mike replles:
I didn't say I inbreed before offering him, we do offer on a limited basis
until we confirm what we know, how else could you produce an inbred
You write below "He was bred several bitches with known problems, one had
produced 5 or 6 megaeosophegos puppies, the other had had GI issues of her
own."
Kathy Writes:
Geeze, I'm glad I'm not unsuspecting John Q public that bought a puppy from
either litter...I hope the people who bought puppies from the first were
informed that if bred, there was a likelihood that their puppies MAY produce
mega. I'm not about throwing the baby out w/ the bath water mind you, I have
bred dogs to bitches that had previously produced mega.
Mike Replies:
The first was done by the studs co-owner at the time, and we were unaware of
the mega's till after the breeding(bitch owners hide things to). None the less
that and the inbreeding confirmed he was not a carrier
Kathy Writes:
BUT call me crazy, I wouldn't knowingly breed one of my boys to a bitch who had
GI issues. I don't want the calls from distraught owners and as a stud dog
owner, I'm just as responsible as the bitch owner IMO. And unless you are
growing out entire litters until well past middle age when some immune
disorders, DM etc show up....well, then you can't say that inbreeding on such
and such a line is clear now can you?
Mike replies:
You can if you have approptiately kept tabs on those breedings.
Mikes Adds:
It's not perfect Kathy, and if you are concerned about doubling up on genetic
concerns I can understand a breedres hesitiation. I wouldn't use this tool
lightly, but for an occasionly test of your line I dont think there is a better
one to date.
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POST is Copyrighted 2010. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its
administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in
any post.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org
NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/
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