As for multiple inbreedings ask Fred Migliore about his Ch.Eko-Lan's Quaser sometime. He was inbred 2 times on his dams side then linebred back on his sire. Talk about an interesting pedigree. If you compare Quasar (in)type there is a big difference between him and Pal and Shiloh. Even though Pal was linebred(Morgan to his aunt)and Shiloh was inbred(Morgan to his daughter)neither one of them resemblied the other in type. Bob Neiman / Walled Lake, Mich. Owner Barkalot's Felonious Assault AKA Brat and the other half of B'N'B Breeder/owner of UKC GR Ch.B'N'B-Barkalot's Cherish RN Co-owner of UKC ChSandyCreek-B'N'B-WC's Christmas Star AKA Echo Co-owner of Ketlyn's Black Widow --- On Wed, 9/8/10, Lindenhill German Shepherds <lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: Lindenhill German Shepherds <lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Inbreeding - A tool to test the health of your line To: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx Cc: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, spotted101@xxxxxxxxxxx Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 9:44 AM Good morning ;-) Kathy you make great points, I can certainly say to some degree the risk is much higher when breeding to the unknown than inbreeding I guess the purpose of the thread was to understand that today, at least in my opinion(and many of our most respected breeders in the past) use this tool to learn more about what we have. Yes I agree it should only be used by those that are confident about what they have. You've got to remember that inbreeding brings out the best of the best, and the worst of the worst and yes you must be prepared for that as a breeder and accept the risk. some of the old timers say you can do it three times in a row(I'm not that brave) but from a clinical point of view they will learn a great deal more about what is hidden in that genealogical locker then the rest of us. I know this is not your cup of tea, but that's your choice Regards, M ** my personal mantra - constantly resist being put in a box - of any kind ** ----- Original Message ----- From: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx To: lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx Cc: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, spotted101@xxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Wednesday, September 8, 2010 8:00:09 AM Subject: Re: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Inbreeding - A tool to test the health of your line Hi Mike, I found the post that started this thread where you wrote: "How many of you breeders perform an inbreeding occasionally to test the vigor(Health/Longevity) of your line? We do an inbreeding on each and every stud that we make available to the fancy." _____________________________________ My concern was and still is many issues don't surface until middle age or later in our dogs. I listed some of those issues yesterday, no need to repeat them. Yet, we know they are there if we study pedigrees. Another concern that I have is that today, breeders can't and don't grow out entire litters until well past middle age. The puppies, for the most part, that we don't keep go to companion homes, and yes, you can keep track of them, but that is small consolation to a family when a "bad" crops up. And yes, "bads" crop up in out crosses to, but when you look at a pedigree and know the issues contained therein, then do an inbreeding, you obviously increase the odds for that particular "bad". And again, I reiterate, there isn't a pedigree w/o genetic "bads" somewhere. Furthermore, you'd have to repeat a litter many times to prove what it is that you are trying to prove in the first place. How many times had you repeated a litter and had entirely different results? For example, if a dog breeds a bitch who had previously produced mega, and there is a litter of six puppies w/o mega, it COULD mean he won't produce mega it or it COULD mean you got damned lucky THIS time. So, your assurance/confidence that a dog doesn't produce something after one litter (even two or three litters) would, sorry to say, fall on my deaf ears. Also, the thing w/ mega is, as AWFUL as it is when it crops up, you know early. What if it's DM, epilepsy, GDV or Toxic Gut that we're talking about???? I agree with you that inbreeding will certainly show you what you have, but I am not in a position to grow out entire litters and care and socialize them properly. I'm also not comfortable saying to a companion home "we know certain things can crop up in this pedigree, we bred a son back to his mother to see if it would crop up or if perhaps we've gotten it out of our lines. Let us know won't you?" JMO obviously, and a good stimulating conversation <G>. Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC Celebrating generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions visit http://www.pinehillgsds.com/ In a message dated 9/7/2010 5:10:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx writes: Kathy Writes: Well, I DO know my lines Mike replles: As do I Kathy Writes: ...I asking how long YOU keep and grow out an entire litter that were produced by inbreeding before YOU offer a boy to the public...like you said in an earlier post, given that an awful lot of issues don't show up until later. Mike replles: I didn't say I inbreed before offering him, we do offer on a limited basis until we confirm what we know, how else could you produce an inbred You write below "He was bred several bitches with known problems, one had produced 5 or 6 megaeosophegos puppies, the other had had GI issues of her own." Kathy Writes: Geeze, I'm glad I'm not unsuspecting John Q public that bought a puppy from either litter...I hope the people who bought puppies from the first were informed that if bred, there was a likelihood that their puppies MAY produce mega. I'm not about throwing the baby out w/ the bath water mind you, I have bred dogs to bitches that had previously produced mega. Mike Replies: The first was done by the studs co-owner at the time, and we were unaware of the mega's till after the breeding(bitch owners hide things to). None the less that and the inbreeding confirmed he was not a carrier Kathy Writes: BUT call me crazy, I wouldn't knowingly breed one of my boys to a bitch who had GI issues. I don't want the calls from distraught owners and as a stud dog owner, I'm just as responsible as the bitch owner IMO. And unless you are growing out entire litters until well past middle age when some immune disorders, DM etc show up....well, then you can't say that inbreeding on such and such a line is clear now can you? Mike replies: You can if you have approptiately kept tabs on those breedings. Mikes Adds: It's not perfect Kathy, and if you are concerned about doubling up on genetic concerns I can understand a breedres hesitiation. I wouldn't use this tool lightly, but for an occasionly test of your line I dont think there is a better one to date. ===========================================================================POST is Copyrighted 2010. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in any post. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ =========================================================================== ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2010. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in any post. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================