[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Inbreeding - A tool to test the health of your line
- From: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx
- To: lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 09:00:09 EDT
Hi Mike,
I found the post that started this thread where you wrote:
"How many of you breeders perform an inbreeding occasionally to test the
vigor(Health/Longevity) of your line?
We do an inbreeding on each and every stud that we make available to the
fancy."
_____________________________________
My concern was and still is many issues don't surface until middle age or
later in our dogs. I listed some of those issues yesterday, no need to
repeat them. Yet, we know they are there if we study pedigrees.
Another concern that I have is that today, breeders can't and don't grow
out entire litters until well past middle age. The puppies, for the most
part, that we don't keep go to companion homes, and yes, you can keep track of
them, but that is small consolation to a family when a "bad" crops up.
And yes, "bads" crop up in out crosses to, but when you look at a pedigree
and know the issues contained therein, then do an inbreeding, you obviously
increase the odds for that particular "bad". And again, I reiterate, there
isn't a pedigree w/o genetic "bads" somewhere.
Furthermore, you'd have to repeat a litter many times to prove what it is
that you are trying to prove in the first place. How many times had you
repeated a litter and had entirely different results?
For example, if a dog breeds a bitch who had previously produced mega, and
there is a litter of six puppies w/o mega, it COULD mean he won't produce
mega it or it COULD mean you got damned lucky THIS time.
So, your assurance/confidence that a dog doesn't produce something after
one litter (even two or three litters) would, sorry to say, fall on my deaf
ears. Also, the thing w/ mega is, as AWFUL as it is when it crops up, you
know early. What if it's DM, epilepsy, GDV or Toxic Gut that we're talking
about????
I agree with you that inbreeding will certainly show you what you have,
but I am not in a position to grow out entire litters and care and socialize
them properly. I'm also not comfortable saying to a companion home "we
know certain things can crop up in this pedigree, we bred a son back to his
mother to see if it would crop up or if perhaps we've gotten it out of our
lines. Let us know won't you?"
JMO obviously, and a good stimulating conversation <G>.
Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC
Celebrating generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions
visit _http://www.pinehillgsds.com/_ (http://www.pinehillgsds.com/)
In a message dated 9/7/2010 5:10:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:
Kathy Writes:
Well, I DO know my lines
Mike replles:
As do I
Kathy Writes:
...I asking how long YOU keep and grow out an entire litter that were
produced by inbreeding before YOU offer a boy to the public...like you said in
an earlier post, given that an awful lot of issues don't show up until
later.
Mike replles:
I didn't say I inbreed before offering him, we do offer on a limited basis
until we confirm what we know, how else could you produce an inbred
You write below "He was bred several bitches with known problems, one had
produced 5 or 6 megaeosophegos puppies, the other had had GI issues of her
own."
Kathy Writes:
Geeze, I'm glad I'm not unsuspecting John Q public that bought a puppy
from either litter...I hope the people who bought puppies from the first were
informed that if bred, there was a likelihood that their puppies MAY
produce mega. I'm not about throwing the baby out w/ the bath water mind you,
I
have bred dogs to bitches that had previously produced mega.
Mike Replies:
The first was done by the studs co-owner at the time, and we were unaware
of the mega's till after the breeding(bitch owners hide things to). None
the less that and the inbreeding confirmed he was not a carrier
Kathy Writes:
BUT call me crazy, I wouldn't knowingly breed one of my boys to a bitch
who had GI issues. I don't want the calls from distraught owners and as a
stud dog owner, I'm just as responsible as the bitch owner IMO. And unless you
are growing out entire litters until well past middle age when some immune
disorders, DM etc show up....well, then you can't say that inbreeding on
such and such a line is clear now can you?
Mike replies:
You can if you have approptiately kept tabs on those breedings.
Mikes Adds:
It's not perfect Kathy, and if you are concerned about doubling up on
genetic concerns I can understand a breedres hesitiation. I wouldn't use this
tool lightly, but for an occasionly test of your line I dont think there is
a better one to date.
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