[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Immaculate conception again
- From: <cnnpmm2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 22:28:27 -0500
Sorry I'm jumping into this discussion kind of late, but I'm just getting
caught up on list mail...
Jim writes: "The first German Shepherd Horand v Grafwarth was born in 1895
and was not the result of breeding different breeds. Every GSD person should
know this."
Then, Evan writes: "And, what was he the result of? A miracle? He had to
come from something, if he was the first. Or, is this a chicken and egg
thing." "And he was bred to another animal from what breed? There is no way
to deny that our breed had a start, and was not born full blown from German
shepherds."
How does any breed get it's start? Sometimes it's through the combinatorics of
established breeds. Other times it's through the selective breeding of
phenotypically similar "mutts" to produce a desired type and/or special
function. Then again, it could be through natural selection in an
environmental microcosm with a limited gene pool. On the rare occasion, there
may suddenly appear a freak of nature who is prepotent for his freakiness and a
new breed is born rather dramatically.
From everything I've read, Horand was the product of selectively bred Germanic
herding types, i.e. "mutts" that were good at herding. Horand was not the
combination of two or more distinct breeds.......Just as Jim pointed out.
Nowhere in Jim's posts did I read that he claimed Horand came from two GSD's.
Rather, Horand was the product of two dogs that were *phenotypically similar*
to the Breed as we know it today. They didn't look like Terriers or Bulldogs
did they? No, they looked more like German Shepherds. (High butt and all.
<G>) Just because Horand's parents weren't officially given the name "German
Shepherd Dogs" doesn't mean they didn't exhibit the breed type.
Yes, it is the chicken and the egg thing, Evan. In this case, if the dog and
his phenotype are the chicken, and the egg is the official naming of this
phenotype/dog, then the chicken definitely came first. The pronouncement by
von Stephanitz that Horand shall henceforth be known as a "German Shepherd Dog"
didn't change the dog, his phenotype or his genetic makeup.
Paulette McGuirt, GSDCA Member
Wellborn-Allemande German Shepherds
Qui Me Amat, Amat et Canem Meam
----- Original Message -----
From: <ELG440@xxxxxxx>
To: <jim_barnhart@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 11:17 PM
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Immaculate conception again
In a message dated 3/9/2011 5:42:55 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
jim_barnhart@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
Here's the link I provided in my original post along with photo. Looks
like a GSD to me. He was not found but already a well known stud when
Stephanitz got his hands on him. My point is that although all is not
known about his ancestry he was not the combination of two different
breeds but many years of breeding German herding stock and inbreeding
on him is what stabilized type and brought about the GSD we know
today. The link from the parent club website:
http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/hdogs/HorandGrafrath.html
And he was bred to another animal from what breed? There is no way to
deny that our breed had a start, and was not born full blown from German
shepherds.
Evan L. Ginsburg
Asgard German Shepherds
http://www.asgardgsd.com/
Where Type Movement and Temperament come together
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POST is Copyrighted 2011. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its
administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in
any post.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org
SUBSCRIPTION:http://showgsd.org/mail.html
NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/
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