Fortunately, there are some breeders and owners of stud dogs that are very honest and even blunt about what their lines consist of. Some have been very honest right on this list such as Christine G. and others. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen acrossed the board. So, we all need to make educated choices when choosing animals to combine into our breeding programs and not be fooled by current fads or big name stud dogs. It's okay, or should be okay, to ask the owner of a stud dog what their dog does not improve on or any faults they have had produced so far. Newcomers need to feel that they won't be jumped on for asking these questions. Jeff Pyle -----Original Message----- From: nancy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To: RFWFORGSD@xxxxxxx; marhaven@xxxxxxx; inflight2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; EKOLAN1@xxxxxxx Sent: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 1:29 PM Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Goldbecker -- Temperament--Gun test Dick, Thanks for sharing all of this. It is very interesting to note the comments on the "immaturity " in regard to our unwillingness to discuss openly the faults of our dogs and bitches. If we did this, I believe we, as breeders, would find ourselves in a better situation with the current health of our dogs. And, importantly, the public in general, would not be turning to other breeds due to experiencing health problems with puppies as young as 6 months. At the very least, we could refuse to breed certain bitches to our dogs if we know that we would be doubling up on certain problems. After all there is no perfect dog or bitch and the Germans spare themselves problems by using the "breed warnings". How wise to say this dog has these wonderful traits but don't breed to bitches that carry such and such lines (or you will be going backwards) . Perhaps we should be asking the bitch owner is "such and such " behind your line, or, my dog can produce "such and such" and if your bitch line carries that you should seek another stud dog. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: <RFWFORGSD@xxxxxxx> To: <marhaven@xxxxxxx>; <inflight2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <EKOLAN1@xxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:34 AM Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Goldbecker -- Temperament--Gun test Thanks to this discussion of temperament. Comments by Fred, Kathaleen, Carolyn', and others parttcularly drove me back to to our copy of "This is the German Shepherd" Ours is the 1967 edition. I recommend that any serious student of the Breed, and especially any one who desires to be known as a "Bre eder" should study this book. On page 31 the author, then a boy of 14 met with A.C. Gilbert, who imported the Sieger, Klodo Von Boxberg, ( a Sable BTW), to see the dog. Klodo had been award the title by none other than Von Stephanitz, in 1925. The top of page 31 describes how Von Stephaniz decided to change the direction the Breed and how Klodo differed from the "old blood" of the day, and became the harbinger of the "new blood", both here and in Germany. In a footnote on page 31, the author describes how the brother of the Reserve Seiger, Sultan von Boxberg, and brother to the Siegerin of 1925, Seffe von Blasienberg, was also imported and later became "one of the basic studs used in the valuable Fortunate Fields experiment. Even though he was gunshy, a trait he passed on to his progeny, he was sound in character in all other respects, . . . . . " . Hart goes on to describe the progeny, and the problems they produced, of the great dogs of the day thru Brix and Rolf, Axel, Pfeffer, Odin, Troll, "F" Litter Arbywood, etc. outlining the problems we can see today, particularly anywhere you encounter orchidism, reproduction, teeth, dysplasia, lack of vigor, longevity, (see also page 78, page 220);.and most importantly, Temperament. (See also pp 70-71 of Harts' book "Dog Breeder's Handbook". Regarding Temperament, Hart describes some of the findings of the Fortunate Fields experiments reported by W.H. Ebeling, He writes ". . that in our search for beauty we have allowed insidious mental faults to become prevalent to the detriment of the breed. It further reveals that vast improvement can be made in this most important part of the dogs being by recognition of breeding faults and breeding to eliminate them." So, in todays world, how does the breeder determine these characteristics so important to the Breed? IMO some of the tools we have, and must employ, support, and strengthen, are the GSDCA Temperament Test, the Loose lead examination, and certainly, the idea of a Gun Test, along with the most important, the Judges knowledge and willingness to heavily fault anything less that described in the Standard. These little snipets of comments from Hart's book, hardly do more than entice, but I believe it is truly a valuable reference and many of his comments set a style, and are as on target, as when they were written 40+ years ago. He is especially critical of the American Breeder's "immaturity" in our lack of willingness to openly discuss the imperfections of our dogs, especially as they reproduce. Dick Whalen Jericho German Shepherds Remember, a balanced dog has letters before and after their name. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In a message dated 11/29/2006 11:19:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, marhaven@xxxxxxx writes: I think gun testing ANY working or sporting dog should be important. We have gun tested our own dogs forever.......just for our own knowledge of where we are with what we have. Haven't had a gun shy dog for years.......but in all honesty we HAVE had a couple. One thing I can tell you and I hope everyone understands. EVERY GUN SOUND DOG IS NOT NECESSARILY A SOUND DOG!!!!! You can have a dog that is not sound in temperament........and they can be very gun sure! You can have a dog that is sound in every respect............. EXCEPT it is gun shy! Either one poses a problem. One not so serious........as long as it never ever has to deal with fireworks, thunder or gunshots in it's entire life..........<G> The other IS a problem in many respects....but could pass the gun test at a National or anywhere. Where we live we have lots of thunderstorms every winter. Some can be pretty intimidating, Living in the Country where people don't necessarily confine their dogs.....we never know what new dogs we will wake up to in our yard after a thunderstorm .......and neighbors are always calling or looking for their gun shy dogs that flew the coop during the storm. <G> I always go out and watch our dogs during fireworks and thunderstorms also, to make sure they are OK with it........but some of those great old sound doggies of all shapes and sizes and breeds that belong to all our neighbors can really LOSE IT during 4th of July and New Years Eve and a Thunderstorm. <G> As Kathaleen said.........it is something we all should at least KNOW! Just don't assume a gun sound dog is sound in every other way..........<G> Our responsibility is to KNOW! Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxx www.marhaven.com ] On Behalf OfEKOLAN1@xxxxxxx Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Goldbecker -- Temperament--Gun test It is interestng with all the talk of Goldbeckers This is the GS. I hunted up my 1955 edition and started to reread it. I had just started took a break to check e-mail. and was reading the posts on gun and or noise shy dogs. On pg. 22 there is a footnote saying the dog that went reserve Sieger to Klodo V Boxberg Sultan Von Blasienberg was one of the basic studs used in the Fortunate Fields experiment. It says " even though he was gunshy, a trait which he passed on to his progeny he was sound in all other respects, had a great willingness to please, trainability and type, and was invaluable in the production of basic stock to further the Fortunate Fields program in which working qualities were paramount." Many of these dogs were some of the first used as the first guide dogs for the blind. Someone else can explain what the fortunate field experiments were my one finger is sore. Fred M. ********************************************************* Hi Fred: Thanks for pointing that out. As I said in a previous post, I'm not saying people shouldn't breed these animals -- but a little knowledge would be helpful for those people who may want to incorporate this bloodline or that bloodline into their kennel. I polled the list a year or so ago on this topic -- it got shot down in flames -- so I'm tilting at windmills. Still can't quite fathom why the idea of a simple gun test is so vile to people, but such is the mysteries of life. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Kathaleen Strong - Inflight Kennels Reg'd - Breeders of: 1995 US GV, AOE-1996 US GVx, Jubilee ROM ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. 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NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - URL temporarily deleted due to AOL issues ============================================================================