[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Goldbecker -- Temperament--Gun test

  • From: caggra@xxxxxxx
  • To: nancy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, RFWFORGSD@xxxxxxx, marhaven@xxxxxxx, inflight2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, EKOLAN1@xxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 16:07:05 -0500

Fortunately, there are some breeders and owners of stud dogs that are very 
honest and even blunt about what their lines consist of.  Some have been very 
honest right on this list such as Christine G. and others.  
Unfortunately, this doesn't happen acrossed the board.  So, we all need to make 
educated choices when choosing animals to combine into our breeding programs 
and not be fooled by current fads or big name stud dogs.   It's okay, or should 
be okay, to ask the owner of a stud dog what their dog does not improve on or 
any faults they have had produced so far.   Newcomers need to feel that they 
won't be jumped on for asking these questions.  
Jeff Pyle 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: nancy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: RFWFORGSD@xxxxxxx; marhaven@xxxxxxx; inflight2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; 
showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; EKOLAN1@xxxxxxx
Sent: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 1:29 PM
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Goldbecker -- Temperament--Gun test


Dick,
Thanks for sharing all of this.  It is very interesting to note the comments
on the "immaturity " in regard to our unwillingness to discuss openly the
faults of our dogs and bitches. If we did this, I believe we, as breeders,
would find ourselves in a better situation with the current health of our
dogs. And, importantly,  the public in general,  would not be turning  to
other breeds due to experiencing health problems with puppies as young as 6
months.   At the very least, we could refuse to breed certain bitches to our
dogs if we know that we would be doubling up on certain problems. After all
there is no perfect dog or bitch and the Germans spare themselves problems
by using the "breed warnings".  How wise to say this dog has these wonderful
traits but don't breed to bitches that carry such and such lines (or you
will be going backwards) .  Perhaps we should be asking the bitch owner is
"such and such " behind your line, or,  my dog can produce "such and such"
and if your bitch line carries that you should seek another stud dog.
Nancy
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <RFWFORGSD@xxxxxxx>
To: <marhaven@xxxxxxx>; <inflight2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
<showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <EKOLAN1@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:34 AM
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Goldbecker -- Temperament--Gun test



Thanks to this discussion of temperament.  Comments by Fred,  Kathaleen,
Carolyn', and others  parttcularly drove me back to to our  copy of "This is
the
German Shepherd"  Ours is the 1967 edition.  I  recommend that any serious
student of the Breed, and especially any one who  desires to be known as a
"Bre
eder" should study this book.

On page 31 the author, then a boy of 14 met with A.C. Gilbert, who imported
the Sieger, Klodo Von Boxberg,  ( a Sable BTW), to see the dog.  Klodo  had
been award the title by none other than Von Stephanitz, in 1925.  The  top
of
page 31 describes how Von Stephaniz decided to change the direction   the
Breed
and how Klodo differed from the "old blood" of the day, and became the
harbinger of the "new blood", both here and in Germany. In a footnote on
page  31,
the author describes how the brother of the Reserve Seiger, Sultan von
Boxberg, and brother to the Siegerin of 1925, Seffe von  Blasienberg, was
also
imported and later became "one of the basic  studs used in the valuable
Fortunate
Fields experiment.  Even though he was  gunshy, a trait he passed on to his
progeny, he was sound in character in all  other respects, . . . . . "   .

Hart goes on to describe the progeny, and the problems they produced, of
the
great dogs of the day thru Brix and Rolf, Axel, Pfeffer, Odin, Troll, "F"
Litter Arbywood, etc. outlining the problems we can see  today,
particularly
anywhere you encounter orchidism, reproduction,  teeth, dysplasia, lack of
vigor, longevity, (see also page 78, page 220);.and  most importantly,
Temperament.
(See also pp 70-71 of Harts' book "Dog Breeder's  Handbook".

Regarding Temperament, Hart describes some of the findings of the Fortunate
Fields experiments reported by W.H. Ebeling,  He writes ". . that in our
search for beauty we have allowed insidious mental faults to become
prevalent to
the detriment of the breed.  It further reveals that vast improvement can
be
made in this most important part of the dogs being by recognition of
breeding
faults and  breeding to eliminate them."

So, in todays world, how does the breeder determine these characteristics
so
important to the Breed?  IMO some of the tools we have, and must employ,
support, and strengthen,  are the GSDCA Temperament Test, the Loose lead
examination, and certainly, the idea of a Gun Test, along with the most
important,
the Judges knowledge and willingness to heavily fault anything less  that
described in the Standard.

These little snipets of comments from Hart's book, hardly do more than
entice, but I believe it is truly a valuable reference and many of his
comments
set a style, and are as on target, as when they were written 40+  years ago.
He
is especially critical of the American Breeder's  "immaturity" in our lack
of
willingness to openly discuss the imperfections  of our dogs, especially as
they reproduce.

Dick Whalen
Jericho German Shepherds
Remember, a balanced dog has letters before and after their name.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In a message dated 11/29/2006 11:19:43 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
marhaven@xxxxxxx writes:
I think  gun testing ANY working or sporting dog should be important.    We
have gun tested
our own dogs forever.......just for our own knowledge of  where we are with
what we have.
Haven't had a gun shy dog for  years.......but in all honesty we HAVE had a
couple.
One thing I can tell  you and I hope everyone understands.
EVERY GUN SOUND DOG IS  NOT NECESSARILY A SOUND DOG!!!!!

You can have a dog that is not sound  in temperament........and they can be
very gun sure!
You can have a  dog that is sound in every respect............. EXCEPT it is
gun  shy!
Either one poses a problem.   One not so serious........as  long as it never
ever has to deal with
fireworks, thunder or gunshots in  it's entire life..........<G>
The other IS a problem in many  respects....but could pass the gun test at a
National or  anywhere.

Where we live we have lots of thunderstorms every  winter.   Some can be
pretty intimidating,
Living in the Country  where people don't necessarily confine their
dogs.....we never know
what  new dogs we will wake up to in our yard after a thunderstorm
.......and
 neighbors are always
calling or looking for their gun shy dogs that flew  the coop during the
storm.    <G>
I always go out and watch  our dogs during fireworks and thunderstorms also,
 to make sure  they
are OK with it........but some of those great old sound doggies of all
shapes and sizes and
breeds that belong to all our neighbors can really  LOSE IT during 4th of
July and New Years
Eve and a Thunderstorm.   <G>

As Kathaleen said.........it is something we all  should at least KNOW!
Just don't assume a
gun sound dog is  sound in every other way..........<G>   Our responsibility
is  to KNOW!

Carolyn   marhaven@xxxxxxx
www.marhaven.com

] On Behalf  OfEKOLAN1@xxxxxxx
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Goldbecker --  Temperament--Gun test

It is interestng with all the talk of  Goldbeckers This is the GS. I hunted
up my 1955 edition and  started to reread it. I had just started took a
break
to  check  e-mail. and was reading the posts on gun and or noise shy dogs.
On
pg. 22  there is a footnote saying the dog that went reserve Sieger to
Klodo
V Boxberg Sultan Von Blasienberg was one of the basic studs  used in the
Fortunate Fields experiment. It says " even  though he was gunshy, a trait
which he passed on to his progeny  he  was sound in all other respects, had
a
great willingness to  please,  trainability and type, and was invaluable in
the  production of basic stock to  further the Fortunate Fields program  in
which working qualities were  paramount."
Many of these dogs were some of the first used as the first guide  dogs for
the
blind. Someone else can explain what the fortunate  field experiments
were my one finger is sore.   Fred  M.
*********************************************************

Hi  Fred:
Thanks for pointing that out.  As I said in a previous  post, I'm not saying
people shouldn't breed these animals -- but a  little knowledge would be
helpful for those people who may want to  incorporate this bloodline or that
bloodline into their  kennel.

I polled the list a year or so ago on this topic  -- it got shot down in
flames -- so I'm tilting at windmills.   Still can't quite fathom why the
idea of a simple gun test is so  vile to people, but such is the mysteries
of
life.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Kathaleen Strong -  Inflight Kennels Reg'd - Breeders of:
1995 US GV, AOE-1996 US GVx,  Jubilee ROM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^






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============================================================================
POST is Copyrighted 2006.  All material remains the property of the original 
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind 
are permitted without prior permission of the original author  AND of the 
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. 

ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY 
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS 
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY 
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE 
PROSECUTED. 

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