[ SHOWGSD-L ] GUN testing/ LONG & opinionated...
- From: "Carolyn" <marhaven@xxxxxxx>
- To: <Santanagsd1954@xxxxxx>, <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <elg440@xxxxxxx>, "EDEN HALL" <GSDHALLMARK@xxxxxxx>, <d_fritsche@xxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 14:08:06 -0700
OK......here is the problem I see with all this discussion about "gun testing"
and
"spooky" dogs.
FIRST.....if a dog is gun shy....you can "condition" them to the sound of some
guns,
but they
will still always be on the verge of bolting... over fireworks, thunder and any
loud
pop or any
gun....they just learn to control themselves while you are attached to their
lead.
THAT'S IT!!
You will NEVER EVER get them over being sound shy!!
GUN SHY is not the same as SPOOKY!! Some spooks are not gun shy at
all...thunder
doesn't bother them, fireworks don't bother them, guns don't scare them....but
they
are STILL
SPOOKS!!!
110 dogs at the National that pass the gun test will not make them mentally
sound.
How
they handle the approach of a friendly stranger or a weird stranger or even a
little
running
squealing kid or any outside pressure that they have not been "conditioned" for
is
the
story of the dog's true character.
GUN SHY or sound shy or touch sensitive is a whole different problem . These
dogs can
make
great family pets, great watch dogs....and even be very protective as long as
no one
shoots
a gun.......<G>.... or it never rains and they don't celebrate on New Years and
the
4th of July!
GUN SHY, or SOUND SHY or touch sensitive dogs cannot be used for any
SERVICE....they
will never hold up under Police work, Guide Dogs, Search and Rescue or even
being
responsible for sheep out in the field as ONE gun shot or one boom of thunder
and
they are
gone......it's Katie bar the door! Living with a family and even barking and
protecting a home
is not a problem......as long as it isn't in the middle of a thunder storm, no
guns
and no fireworks
going off. TWO SEPARATE PROBLEMS.....both still unsound....but NOT SPOOKY on
one.
One more thing......those complaining about dogs that are "too
friendly".....don't
forget before
you condemn a show dog for this.....we raise them to be VERY friendly....and
that also
does
NOT TAKE AWAY THEIR PROTECTIVE INSTINCTS!!! A very VERY friendly dog can still
be the most protective dog in the arena! Aloof has nothing to do with
protection!!
It is
the preferred character according to the Standard....but does not mean the most
protective
dog is the aloof one.
It appears we have a lot to learn about true SOUND character in a German
Shepherd Dog.
Until we get all this right....and truly understand the difference between TRUE
SOUNDNESS
and conditioned training and a whole different set of problems like touch
sensitive or
sound
shy which is more of a physical problem as compared to a truly MENTALLY UNSOUND
GSD ...how in the world do we expect to solve the problems???
We have gun tested our dogs for years since day one of being in GSD and
before.....and
we use a 30.06 or a .33 NOT a 22 Caliber.....<G>
Over the years in the past we have had a couple of gun shy dogs and they were
completely
100% sound until it thundered or fireworks. Our first GSD was VERY UNSOUND
and she
was not gun shy at all........solid as a rock during fireworks, gun testing,
and
thunder. ONE
has nothing to do with the other.....but does have to do with using the dog in
any
service work
and remember people........this Breed was bred for service!! It is ALL
important.......<G>
It's the same physically. Until we understand how one problem causes another
in the
movement or stamina we will have a problem. Good feet matter as much as a
good
front...
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxx
www.marhaven.com
,
> gsdhallmark@xxxxxxx writes:
> In the US there are two Seiger Shows where a gun shot anb a courage test are >
> required before a VA (select) can be given a dog. This is a requirement in
> most countries where GSD's are shown, not just in Germany. This is done at
> the show so everyone can see for themselves, as these dogs are going to be
> the backbone of breeding programs.
> > Why not show the fancy that attend the National our top dogs temperments?
************************************>
>Evan Ginsburg writes:
> Anyone who watches the dogs at the national can see temperament.
>
> We don't need to shoot off a gun. Besides, anyone who wants to can gun train
> a dog. Just because they do it at the Seiger Show does not make it better.
>
> Any good judge can judge temperament by knowing the breed, looking at the
> dogs, and approaching them. It doesn't take a gun to tell us what dog is
> sound. >
> Besides, unless you use a shotgun at full choke, what do we really know
> about the dog's reaction?> > > Evan_ Asgard German Shepherds_ >
******************************************
> d_fritsche@xxxxxxxxxx writes:
> Come on Evan....> I've trained my dogs to fool the judges into believing they
> have
good > temperament. They do it so well, they have even fooled me now....
*******************************************************
>
> Dave, as always brings up a good point, and with a bit of humor. None of us
> want bad temperament. We all want the proper dogs, and we also want to
> win. If your dog does not have good temperament, you can, if you wish train
> him. > Then you have done nothing that will help the future of the breed.
>
> No test, no loose lead, and no gun can tell you what the dog is thinking. It
> might weed out a few, but some sound dogs have blown the temperament test.
> The best way to test temperament is leave it up to the judge, elect quality
> judges, and have a little faith in your fellow breeder/exhibitors. >
> We don't need more police, if anything we need less dishonest people.>
> I say, if someone shows a spooky dog, shoot em. But, don't blame the dog.>
> Evan_ Asgard German Shepherds_ (http://www.asgardgsd.com/)
**********************************************************************
>
> I just want to make mention of the fact, that judging a Dog's temperment in
> the AKC Show Ring, as it is performed today...tells very little about the
> true pure character and nerves of the dog. As Judges we know we can approach
> and touch them... Which is usually aided by the fact that 'the dog's people',
> are running wild outside the ring, darting in and out and ringing bells and
> calling dogs by name...whistling etc. etc... getting their attention.. So Much
> for that...
>
> A gun sound dog is usually not disturbed by sudden , unexpected noises,
> and usually it follows they have steady nerves in thunder storms, etc...The
> Loose Lead test gives us some better indication of the dog's body language as
> we approach as their 'support' system , the 'handler' is not next to them...We
> can surmise from their body language and their eyes, when we approach, if
> they are really well-trained spooks... BUT the problem being there are some
> who
> are very well-trained , very well controlled by outside influences, and may
> appear to be normal with the approach.. when, actually they are ready to
> flee
> at the slighest misque on the Judge's approach and handling. When judging I
> often 'sneak' a look at the dogs I have chosen, while they are back in
> line.....Sometimes those 'stolen moments' are very revealing...I have had
> tough dogs
> under me, soft dogs, absolutely bullet-proof dogs, running the gamut...Some
> dogs are aggressive to people, some are aggressive to other dogs, etc. etc..
> some are actually afraid of everything and are still able to be presented
> for a
> brief time in the ring...appearing close to normal and fooling everyone...
>
> I believe all of the Judges do their level best to select and award Good
> temperament in the ring... BUT they are handicapped by a system that is a
> 'touch and go'....'pat and go', evaluation...and sometimes they can put up a
> dog that the ringside is critical of , but that dog does everything it is
> supposed to do in that ring, and that is all a Judge has to go on... if
> nothing that
> dog does, gives it away...So the system in place, is a very subjective and
> difficult one in which to truly evaluate a dog's pure character and
> temperament..
> I firmly believe there is room for improvement, particularly at the
> National level., where Judge's Choices influence the Breed dramatically, for
> generations to come.. JMO barb Williams
>
>
============================================================================
POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - URL temporarily deleted due to AOL issues
============================================================================
Other related posts:
