[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES

  • From: Joan Fox <campaignersgsd@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, Kathaleen Strong <inflight@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, zrockenstein@xxxxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:13:55 -0800 (PST)

I understand what you are both saying and trying to instill in new breeders.
I totally agree.
Now, let me add this.
No one, can make you a great breeder. It's something in you that makes you want 
to fulfill a dream.
It's an art form. It's a talent.
We can try to help others to do their best in breeding but if they do not have 
that inspiration their are no tools to guide them.
It is not driven by greed, or fame, it is driven by a picture, a desire to 
breed the best German Shepherd dog in what venue you choose.
Why do some wish to tear down others dreams?"
Breed the best herding dog, or Schh dog, or VA dog or performance titled, or GV 
or GVX but when is gets down to it should we all not be trying to breed the  
best GSD we can and maybe we can if we all try.
Let's all of us do the best for the breed.
Joan

--- On Sat, 11/22/08, Carolyn Martello <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Carolyn Martello <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES
To: hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Kathaleen Strong" <inflight@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, 
zrockenstein@xxxxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Saturday, November 22, 2008, 8:41 PM

What a great read by Kathaleen.
Also I agree with Christine's additional comments.    Some of us spend
hours trying to 
help people with questions.   Even when it has nothing to do with our own lines
or stud or
anything else, except trying to help when someone asks.
In the end......most do not listen.   Those that do are the reasons we keep
trying I guess.
Those that don't ......usually it's because you are not telling them
what they want to hear!!
Many are just hoping that you re-inforce the direction they are going to go
anyway.    When
 you don't......they suddenly need no more "mentoring".  
 <G>
The only thing I would add to what Kathaleen and Christine have already said is
that I really
believe part of being brutally honest is that some dogs and bitches should just
be eliminated 
from breeding.
Many inquire with questions and give me a litany of problems they have had with
their bitch,
and want to know where to go to avoid them with the next litter.
If a bitch has not been bred......as Kathaleen said it takes a lot of
pre-research.....and even then
it might not work.   But it is your responsibility in the end for what she
produces.   You have to
find the homes and guarantee the puppies.  
Ultimately you must compensate......and go in the direction you have a plan for
with your lines.
Once a bitch has had a couple of litters.......and gives nothing remarkable and
good .....and does 
produce new problems... or the 'problems of the line'... then I think
it IS time to eliminate her from 
further breeding......... and move on.
Carolyn    marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.Marhaven.com



----- Original Message ----- 
  From: hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  To: Kathaleen Strong ; zrockenstein@xxxxxxxxx ; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 3:30 PM
  Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES


  To this I would like to add review Oppenheimer's dog breeding rules,
which parallels much of what 
  Kathaleen has written. Over the year's the topic of these
"rules" have come up and Peggy M once
   tried to open a discussion on one of the lists about these rules..but no one
seemed interested. 
  Too bad.
  Everyone should have them posted where they can review them regularly. I hope
the below gets 
  published..not that it will make a difference. I could go on and on about the
countless hours,I like  
  many others have spent writing e-mails, discussing pedigrees, making breeding
suggestions
  (in my case, not to  my own dogs), I have even tried to recommend breeding
suggestions for 
  novices with bitches they have purchased from me..and they still don't
listen!! I have trying to 
  relegate the "art" of dog breeding into a paint by numbers format,
doesn't work. Bottom line, 
  you either have the knack for it, or you don't. Newbies are like
children..children come to
  parents for advice and more often than not don't take it, like parents,
mentors in the breed try 
  to give advise based on their past experiences, good or bad and newbie like
children, have to 
  do it their way. Which is fine, but newbies should not complain that there
are no mentors..
  honestly most have tried and have been unsuccessful, so you just tell folks
to do what they want 
  to do as they are going to do that anyway!  
   I think mybiggest pet peeve is when a newbie buys a bitch from your breeding
program
  and listens to every Tom Dick and Harry( many who happen to own stud dogs) on
how to breed
   the bitch except you,  the breeder, whom they got the bitch from!  Christine
  hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and Christine GraingerWWW.HICKORYHILLGSD.COM


  > [Original Message]
  > From: Kathaleen Strong <inflight@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  > Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES
  >
  > It's always a good place to start with your bitch.  You have to be
brutally> honest in evaluating
   your bitch -- take your feelings out of the equation, > take her show
record out of the equation - 
  review her hip/elbow & health > information and then look at the bitch
as an individual with
   nothing other > than her temperament, motion, structure, and overall
breed type - compare
  it> to what the standard says is correct, even if you don't like it. 
  >
  > 1) What qualities/faults does she bring to the equation?
  > 2) What would you like to change/correct in your bitch in the
resulting> puppies?
  > 3) If she has been bred before, what did you try to correct and what
were > the results?  
  Where you happy with the overall resulting quality of the> litter?  
  If you haven't bred her before, what are her parents/grandparents>
known to produce
   both good and bad?   If known, what were your bitch's > littermates
like? (this is important)  
  What are the health and longevity > strength/weaknesses behind her?    
  > 4) After you have evaluated all these items when it comes to her, as an
  > individual, now look at her pedigree -- what strengths and weaknesses
can
  > you determine from it?  What incidence of missing teeth, bad bites, down
  > ears, long coats, monorchids, hearts, hips/elbows, bloat, and torsion
are
  > there in the immediate 3 generations?  Is she linebred?  How heavily
  > (sometimes you have to go back past 4 generations, ie a dog who's
linebred
  > on Dog A (5,4,6,5,6,5 - 5,5,4,5,6,5) could be still considered heavily
  > linebred)?  Is there a portion of her pedigree that you prefer the dogs
  in?
  > With your brutally honest evaluation of her as an individual, knowing
her
  > strengths, weaknesses and areas you'd like to hopefully improve on
in the
  > resulting puppies -- look at the pedigree and see if she is typical of
one
  > side of the pedigree or the other?  
  >
  > Now looking at the results of those questions -- this should give you a
direction as to 
  where to start looking. If you have the ideas of what you > want to change
in your bitch, 
  start looking first at dogs who 1) Compensate > toward correct in these
items and 
  remember they may or may not themselves be> entirely correct themselves,
   but tend to produce it; 2) 
  After you've> narrowed it down to a few dogs who look like they fit
the bill, answer
  > questions 1-4 for the dog also; Be especially cognizant of the pedigree
and
  > puppies produced so far.  Don't consider your feelings in relation
to the> dog.  
  Don't consider titles the dog has achieved, these are fluff used to>
sell resulting puppies, 
  not produce a quality litter.  The only things other > than how the dog
himself can help you 
  compensate for your bitch to consider > are his hip/elbow/health
information, how the 
  pedigree looks in comparison > to your bitch, what the dog has produced
that you like. 
   When looking at his> puppies, you should try to determine what the
bitches he was bred to
  brought> to the table and what their pedigrees are as well.>
  > Talk to the stud dog owners about their dog, and talk to other people
who've > bred their 
  bitches to the dog.  Another thing that should be considered in> the
"compensation" theory, 
  sometimes breeding a correct bitch to an extreme
  > (in some cases not correct) dog is beneficial to bring back angulation,
and > vice versa.  

  Also it is important to note there is a theory, that if left to >
Nature's devices, dogs would 
  revert to look more like wild canines -- tall > on leg, straight in
angulation -- that as breeders 
  we have to utilize some> extremes to keep that type which is recessive in
nature.
  >
  > I agree with Jamie though -- once you've done all this
evaluation,> discussion and research, 
  don't over think it.  If you listen to your gut > instinct/intuition
you should make a sound choice. 
   However, if it doesn't > work out, don't beat yourself up;
breeding dogs is the biggest gambling
  game > anyone has ever been involved in.  Imagine the numbers of dice
you're > rolling at once, 
  and then remember no matter how much you plan, no matter> how good it
looks on paper, no 
  matter how "it should have worked" ==
  > sometimes it just doesn't.  Try again. If you have some luck going
yourway,
  > your research will pay off with a litter of healthy, quality pups with
maybe > a few "stars" in it.
  >
  > Kathaleen
  >

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POST is Copyrighted 2008.  All material remains the property of the original 
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind 
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the 
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. 

ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY 
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS 
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY 
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE 
PROSECUTED. 

For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx

VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org
NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/
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