I understand what you are both saying and trying to instill in new breeders. I totally agree. Now, let me add this. No one, can make you a great breeder. It's something in you that makes you want to fulfill a dream. It's an art form. It's a talent. We can try to help others to do their best in breeding but if they do not have that inspiration their are no tools to guide them. It is not driven by greed, or fame, it is driven by a picture, a desire to breed the best German Shepherd dog in what venue you choose. Why do some wish to tear down others dreams?" Breed the best herding dog, or Schh dog, or VA dog or performance titled, or GV or GVX but when is gets down to it should we all not be trying to breed the best GSD we can and maybe we can if we all try. Let's all of us do the best for the breed. Joan --- On Sat, 11/22/08, Carolyn Martello <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: From: Carolyn Martello <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES To: hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Kathaleen Strong" <inflight@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, zrockenstein@xxxxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Date: Saturday, November 22, 2008, 8:41 PM What a great read by Kathaleen. Also I agree with Christine's additional comments. Some of us spend hours trying to help people with questions. Even when it has nothing to do with our own lines or stud or anything else, except trying to help when someone asks. In the end......most do not listen. Those that do are the reasons we keep trying I guess. Those that don't ......usually it's because you are not telling them what they want to hear!! Many are just hoping that you re-inforce the direction they are going to go anyway. When you don't......they suddenly need no more "mentoring". <G> The only thing I would add to what Kathaleen and Christine have already said is that I really believe part of being brutally honest is that some dogs and bitches should just be eliminated from breeding. Many inquire with questions and give me a litany of problems they have had with their bitch, and want to know where to go to avoid them with the next litter. If a bitch has not been bred......as Kathaleen said it takes a lot of pre-research.....and even then it might not work. But it is your responsibility in the end for what she produces. You have to find the homes and guarantee the puppies. Ultimately you must compensate......and go in the direction you have a plan for with your lines. Once a bitch has had a couple of litters.......and gives nothing remarkable and good .....and does produce new problems... or the 'problems of the line'... then I think it IS time to eliminate her from further breeding......... and move on. Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.Marhaven.com ----- Original Message ----- From: hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To: Kathaleen Strong ; zrockenstein@xxxxxxxxx ; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 3:30 PM Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES To this I would like to add review Oppenheimer's dog breeding rules, which parallels much of what Kathaleen has written. Over the year's the topic of these "rules" have come up and Peggy M once tried to open a discussion on one of the lists about these rules..but no one seemed interested. Too bad. Everyone should have them posted where they can review them regularly. I hope the below gets published..not that it will make a difference. I could go on and on about the countless hours,I like many others have spent writing e-mails, discussing pedigrees, making breeding suggestions (in my case, not to my own dogs), I have even tried to recommend breeding suggestions for novices with bitches they have purchased from me..and they still don't listen!! I have trying to relegate the "art" of dog breeding into a paint by numbers format, doesn't work. Bottom line, you either have the knack for it, or you don't. Newbies are like children..children come to parents for advice and more often than not don't take it, like parents, mentors in the breed try to give advise based on their past experiences, good or bad and newbie like children, have to do it their way. Which is fine, but newbies should not complain that there are no mentors.. honestly most have tried and have been unsuccessful, so you just tell folks to do what they want to do as they are going to do that anyway! I think mybiggest pet peeve is when a newbie buys a bitch from your breeding program and listens to every Tom Dick and Harry( many who happen to own stud dogs) on how to breed the bitch except you, the breeder, whom they got the bitch from! Christine hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and Christine GraingerWWW.HICKORYHILLGSD.COM > [Original Message] > From: Kathaleen Strong <inflight@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES > > It's always a good place to start with your bitch. You have to be brutally> honest in evaluating your bitch -- take your feelings out of the equation, > take her show record out of the equation - review her hip/elbow & health > information and then look at the bitch as an individual with nothing other > than her temperament, motion, structure, and overall breed type - compare it> to what the standard says is correct, even if you don't like it. > > 1) What qualities/faults does she bring to the equation? > 2) What would you like to change/correct in your bitch in the resulting> puppies? > 3) If she has been bred before, what did you try to correct and what were > the results? Where you happy with the overall resulting quality of the> litter? If you haven't bred her before, what are her parents/grandparents> known to produce both good and bad? If known, what were your bitch's > littermates like? (this is important) What are the health and longevity > strength/weaknesses behind her? > 4) After you have evaluated all these items when it comes to her, as an > individual, now look at her pedigree -- what strengths and weaknesses can > you determine from it? What incidence of missing teeth, bad bites, down > ears, long coats, monorchids, hearts, hips/elbows, bloat, and torsion are > there in the immediate 3 generations? Is she linebred? How heavily > (sometimes you have to go back past 4 generations, ie a dog who's linebred > on Dog A (5,4,6,5,6,5 - 5,5,4,5,6,5) could be still considered heavily > linebred)? Is there a portion of her pedigree that you prefer the dogs in? > With your brutally honest evaluation of her as an individual, knowing her > strengths, weaknesses and areas you'd like to hopefully improve on in the > resulting puppies -- look at the pedigree and see if she is typical of one > side of the pedigree or the other? > > Now looking at the results of those questions -- this should give you a direction as to where to start looking. If you have the ideas of what you > want to change in your bitch, start looking first at dogs who 1) Compensate > toward correct in these items and remember they may or may not themselves be> entirely correct themselves, but tend to produce it; 2) After you've> narrowed it down to a few dogs who look like they fit the bill, answer > questions 1-4 for the dog also; Be especially cognizant of the pedigree and > puppies produced so far. Don't consider your feelings in relation to the> dog. Don't consider titles the dog has achieved, these are fluff used to> sell resulting puppies, not produce a quality litter. The only things other > than how the dog himself can help you compensate for your bitch to consider > are his hip/elbow/health information, how the pedigree looks in comparison > to your bitch, what the dog has produced that you like. When looking at his> puppies, you should try to determine what the bitches he was bred to brought> to the table and what their pedigrees are as well.> > Talk to the stud dog owners about their dog, and talk to other people who've > bred their bitches to the dog. Another thing that should be considered in> the "compensation" theory, sometimes breeding a correct bitch to an extreme > (in some cases not correct) dog is beneficial to bring back angulation, and > vice versa. Also it is important to note there is a theory, that if left to > Nature's devices, dogs would revert to look more like wild canines -- tall > on leg, straight in angulation -- that as breeders we have to utilize some> extremes to keep that type which is recessive in nature. > > I agree with Jamie though -- once you've done all this evaluation,> discussion and research, don't over think it. If you listen to your gut > instinct/intuition you should make a sound choice. However, if it doesn't > work out, don't beat yourself up; breeding dogs is the biggest gambling game > anyone has ever been involved in. Imagine the numbers of dice you're > rolling at once, and then remember no matter how much you plan, no matter> how good it looks on paper, no matter how "it should have worked" == > sometimes it just doesn't. Try again. If you have some luck going yourway, > your research will pay off with a litter of healthy, quality pups with maybe > a few "stars" in it. > > Kathaleen > ===========================================================================POST is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. 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