[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR MENTOREES
- From: "Nancy Harper" <nancy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "Kay Reamensnyder Betty Doerpinghaus" <bedkar@xxxxx>, <edangsd@xxxxxxxxxxx>, <cinosamgsd@xxxxxxxxx>, "GSD list" <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, <denwil2007@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:57:23 -0500
That could be a great thread for everyone ESPECIALLY if breeders would share
their
experiences from the past and what worked well.
How did you choose your foundation bitch
Was she an outcrss, line bred, inbred
Were her most successful litters line bred, inbred, outcrossed
What determined which stud (s) were used
What improvements were made
Did you choose another bitch that produced better, not as well
One does not have to use names unless one wants to praise
certain dogs/bitches of the past.
Whose first?
Barbara Amidon, are you there, you're on first.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kay Reamensnyder Betty Doerpinghaus
To: edangsd@xxxxxxxxxxx ; cinosamgsd@xxxxxxxxx ; GSD list ;
denwil2007@xxxxxxxxx ; Nancy Harper
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR MENTOREES
I would love to hear about everyone's foundation bitches, if they
are willing to share their stories.
-Kay Reamensnyder and Betty Doerpinghaus
-Home of Bedkar German Shepherds
-bedkar@xxxxx
-Visit our Website: www.bedkargsd.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:29:29 -0800
> From: edangsd@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR MENTOREES
> To: cinosamgsd@xxxxxxxxx; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; denwil2007@xxxxxxxxx;
nancy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> I think Nancy has hit the nail on the head. I have always said that the
big name dog makes your name, but the top producing bitch makes your kennel.
> Ann Home of Sel Ex # 6 Ch Maxwell, Sel Ex Ch Gilley and #1 Dam Muggles -
owner/breeder of 69 champions and 19 ROMs
>
> --- On Mon, 11/24/08, Nancy Harper <nancy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> From: Nancy Harper <nancy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR MENTOREES
> To: cinosamgsd@xxxxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, denwil2007@xxxxxxxxx
> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 3:03 PM
>
> Many of our very best lines stated with pre-potent bitches that were great
> in the whelping box but never saw a show ring.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cinosam GSD" <cinosamgsd@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <denwil2007@xxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 9:40 AM
> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR MENTOREES
>
>
>
> The "best" possible bitch means different things to different people.
> My
> interpetation is that the best possible bitch you can afford has the best
> possible pedigree that you would want to start your own lines and has
> nothing to do with whether the bitch is finishable or not. I think most
> successful breeders have bred bitches that could not finish for one reason
> or another but were bred because of their outstanding pedigree (or
shoulder,
> or temperament or whatever). The ROM behind those bitches names mean a heck
> of a lot more than the lack of a CH in front of it.
>
>
> Cindy
> www.cinosamgsd.com
>
> --- On Sat, 11/22/08, Denise Williams <denwil2007@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> From: Denise Williams <denwil2007@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR MENTOREES
> To: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Saturday, November 22, 2008, 8:25 PM
>
> I think a lot of new folks are confused by what they are told, because of
> what
> they see to the contrary. I'm told that showing is to evaluate breeding
> stock. I've been told to get the best possible female I can buy. Then I
> look at others' websites, and see people who are breeding dogs that
> couldn't win in any ring, or they won't even photograph in a stack. I
> get suspicious when the dam is posed sitting down. That tells me a lot!
> If she isn't good enough to show why breed her at all? Perhaps this can be
> done by an experienced breeder, but it's not what I was told, and it sure
> makes me doubt the source of my information.
> For everything I've been told there is someone else who I see doing
> differently. If I didn't have my own mind here, then I would a) forget it
> all and do my own thing, b) screw this all up (and I still might do that
> down
> the road,) or c)leave the sport.
>
> You have to stick with one thing, one person and see it through. But
> that's not the things are done anymore. Look at the high rate of divorce.
> People promise/say one thing, and if it's not instant, promises are void.
>
> 2 out of 100 will hear wise advise, and only 1 will actually know how to
> apply
> it
>
> Denise W.
>
> http://sabianshepherds.tripod.com
> for show and performance
> *join my site ring*
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Carolyn Martello <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Kathaleen Strong
> <inflight@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; zrockenstein@xxxxxxxxx;
> showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 8:41:20 PM
> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES
>
> What a great read by Kathaleen.
> Also I agree with Christine's additional comments. Some of us spend
> hours trying to
> help people with questions. Even when it has nothing to do with our own
> lines
> or stud or
> anything else, except trying to help when someone asks.
> In the end......most do not listen. Those that do are the reasons we keep
> trying I guess.
> Those that don't ......usually it's because you are not telling them
> what they want to hear!!
> Many are just hoping that you re-inforce the direction they are going to go
> anyway. When
> you don't......they suddenly need no more "mentoring".
> <G>
> The only thing I would add to what Kathaleen and Christine have already
said
> is
> that I really
> believe part of being brutally honest is that some dogs and bitches should
> just
> be eliminated
> from breeding.
> Many inquire with questions and give me a litany of problems they have had
> with
> their bitch,
> and want to know where to go to avoid them with the next litter.
> If a bitch has not been bred......as Kathaleen said it takes a lot of
> pre-research.....and even then
> it might not work. But it is your responsibility in the end for what she
> produces. You have to
> find the homes and guarantee the puppies.
> Ultimately you must compensate......and go in the direction you have a plan
> for
> with your lines.
> Once a bitch has had a couple of litters.......and gives nothing remarkable
> and
> good .....and does
> produce new problems... or the 'problems of the line'... then I think
> it IS time to eliminate her from
> further breeding......... and move on.
> Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> www.Marhaven.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: Kathaleen Strong ; zrockenstein@xxxxxxxxx ; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 3:30 PM
> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES
>
>
> To this I would like to add review Oppenheimer's dog breeding rules,
> which parallels much of what
> Kathaleen has written. Over the year's the topic of these
> "rules" have come up and Peggy M once
> tried to open a discussion on one of the lists about these rules..but no
> one
> seemed interested.
> Too bad.
> Everyone should have them posted where they can review them regularly. I
> hope
> the below gets
> published..not that it will make a difference. I could go on and on about
> the
> countless hours,I like
> many others have spent writing e-mails, discussing pedigrees, making
> breeding
> suggestions
> (in my case, not to my own dogs), I have even tried to recommend breeding
> suggestions for
> novices with bitches they have purchased from me..and they still don't
> listen!! I have trying to
> relegate the "art" of dog breeding into a paint by numbers format,
> doesn't work. Bottom line,
> you either have the knack for it, or you don't. Newbies are like
> children..children come to
> parents for advice and more often than not don't take it, like parents,
> mentors in the breed try
> to give advise based on their past experiences, good or bad and newbie
> like
> children, have to
> do it their way. Which is fine, but newbies should not complain that there
> are no mentors..
> honestly most have tried and have been unsuccessful, so you just tell
> folks
> to do what they want
> to do as they are going to do that anyway!
> I think mybiggest pet peeve is when a newbie buys a bitch from your
> breeding
> program
> and listens to every Tom Dick and Harry( many who happen to own stud dogs)
> on
> how to breed
> the bitch except you, the breeder, whom they got the bitch from!
> Christine
> hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and Christine
> GraingerWWW.HICKORYHILLGSD.COM
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Kathaleen Strong <inflight@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES
> >
> > It's always a good place to start with your bitch. You have to be
> brutally> honest in evaluating
> your bitch -- take your feelings out of the equation, > take her show
> record out of the equation -
> review her hip/elbow & health > information and then look at the bitch
> as an individual with
> nothing other > than her temperament, motion, structure, and overall
> breed type - compare
> it> to what the standard says is correct, even if you don't like it.
> >
> > 1) What qualities/faults does she bring to the equation?
> > 2) What would you like to change/correct in your bitch in the
> resulting> puppies?
> > 3) If she has been bred before, what did you try to correct and what
> were > the results?
> Where you happy with the overall resulting quality of the> litter?
> If you haven't bred her before, what are her parents/grandparents>
> known to produce
> both good and bad? If known, what were your bitch's > littermates
> like? (this is important)
> What are the health and longevity > strength/weaknesses behind her?
> > 4) After you have evaluated all these items when it comes to her, as an
> > individual, now look at her pedigree -- what strengths and weaknesses
> can
> > you determine from it? What incidence of missing teeth, bad bites, down
> > ears, long coats, monorchids, hearts, hips/elbows, bloat, and torsion
> are
> > there in the immediate 3 generations? Is she linebred? How heavily
> > (sometimes you have to go back past 4 generations, ie a dog who's
> linebred
> > on Dog A (5,4,6,5,6,5 - 5,5,4,5,6,5) could be still considered heavily
> > linebred)? Is there a portion of her pedigree that you prefer the dogs
> in?
> > With your brutally honest evaluation of her as an individual, knowing
> her
> > strengths, weaknesses and areas you'd like to hopefully improve on
> in the
> > resulting puppies -- look at the pedigree and see if she is typical of
> one
> > side of the pedigree or the other?
> >
> > Now looking at the results of those questions -- this should give you a
> direction as to
> where to start looking. If you have the ideas of what you > want to change
> in your bitch,
> start looking first at dogs who 1) Compensate > toward correct in these
> items and
> remember they may or may not themselves be> entirely correct themselves,
> but tend to produce it; 2)
> After you've> narrowed it down to a few dogs who look like they fit
> the bill, answer
> > questions 1-4 for the dog also; Be especially cognizant of the pedigree
> and
> > puppies produced so far. Don't consider your feelings in relation
> to the> dog.
> Don't consider titles the dog has achieved, these are fluff used to>
> sell resulting puppies,
> not produce a quality litter. The only things other > than how the dog
> himself can help you
> compensate for your bitch to consider > are his hip/elbow/health
> information, how the
> pedigree looks in comparison > to your bitch, what the dog has produced
> that you like.
> When looking at his> puppies, you should try to determine what the
> bitches he was bred to
> brought> to the table and what their pedigrees are as well.>
> > Talk to the stud dog owners about their dog, and talk to other people
> who've > bred their
> bitches to the dog. Another thing that should be considered in> the
> "compensation" theory,
> sometimes breeding a correct bitch to an extreme
> > (in some cases not correct) dog is beneficial to bring back angulation,
> and > vice versa.
>
> Also it is important to note there is a theory, that if left to >
> Nature's devices, dogs would
> revert to look more like wild canines -- tall > on leg, straight in
> angulation -- that as breeders
> we have to utilize some> extremes to keep that type which is recessive in
> nature.
> >
> > I agree with Jamie though -- once you've done all this
> evaluation,> discussion and research,
> don't over think it. If you listen to your gut > instinct/intuition
> you should make a sound choice.
> However, if it doesn't > work out, don't beat yourself up;
> breeding dogs is the biggest gambling
> game > anyone has ever been involved in. Imagine the numbers of dice
> you're > rolling at once,
> and then remember no matter how much you plan, no matter> how good it
> looks on paper, no
> matter how "it should have worked" ==
> > sometimes it just doesn't. Try again. If you have some luck going
> yourway,
> > your research will pay off with a litter of healthy, quality pups with
> maybe > a few "stars" in it.
> >
> > Kathaleen
> >
>
>
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is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original
> author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any
> kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of
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>
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is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original
> author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any
kind
> are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
> Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
>
> ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
> MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
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> POST is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
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POST is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original
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ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
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