[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR MENTOREES
- From: ANN SCHULTZ <edangsd@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: cinosamgsd@xxxxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, denwil2007@xxxxxxxxx, nancy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:29:29 -0800 (PST)
I think Nancy has hit the nail on the head. I have always said that the big
name dog makes your name, but the top producing bitch makes your kennel.
Ann Home of Sel Ex # 6 Ch Maxwell, Sel Ex Ch Gilley and #1 Dam Muggles -
owner/breeder of 69 champions and 19 ROMs
--- On Mon, 11/24/08, Nancy Harper <nancy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Nancy Harper <nancy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR MENTOREES
To: cinosamgsd@xxxxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, denwil2007@xxxxxxxxx
Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 3:03 PM
Many of our very best lines stated with pre-potent bitches that were great
in the whelping box but never saw a show ring.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cinosam GSD" <cinosamgsd@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; <denwil2007@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 9:40 AM
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR MENTOREES
The "best" possible bitch means different things to different people.
My
interpetation is that the best possible bitch you can afford has the best
possible pedigree that you would want to start your own lines and has
nothing to do with whether the bitch is finishable or not. I think most
successful breeders have bred bitches that could not finish for one reason
or another but were bred because of their outstanding pedigree (or shoulder,
or temperament or whatever). The ROM behind those bitches names mean a heck
of a lot more than the lack of a CH in front of it.
Cindy
www.cinosamgsd.com
--- On Sat, 11/22/08, Denise Williams <denwil2007@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Denise Williams <denwil2007@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR MENTOREES
To: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Saturday, November 22, 2008, 8:25 PM
I think a lot of new folks are confused by what they are told, because of
what
they see to the contrary. I'm told that showing is to evaluate breeding
stock. I've been told to get the best possible female I can buy. Then I
look at others' websites, and see people who are breeding dogs that
couldn't win in any ring, or they won't even photograph in a stack. I
get suspicious when the dam is posed sitting down. That tells me a lot!
If she isn't good enough to show why breed her at all? Perhaps this can be
done by an experienced breeder, but it's not what I was told, and it sure
makes me doubt the source of my information.
For everything I've been told there is someone else who I see doing
differently. If I didn't have my own mind here, then I would a) forget it
all and do my own thing, b) screw this all up (and I still might do that
down
the road,) or c)leave the sport.
You have to stick with one thing, one person and see it through. But
that's not the things are done anymore. Look at the high rate of divorce.
People promise/say one thing, and if it's not instant, promises are void.
2 out of 100 will hear wise advise, and only 1 will actually know how to
apply
it
Denise W.
http://sabianshepherds.tripod.com
for show and performance
*join my site ring*
________________________________
From: Carolyn Martello <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Kathaleen Strong
<inflight@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; zrockenstein@xxxxxxxxx;
showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 8:41:20 PM
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES
What a great read by Kathaleen.
Also I agree with Christine's additional comments. Some of us spend
hours trying to
help people with questions. Even when it has nothing to do with our own
lines
or stud or
anything else, except trying to help when someone asks.
In the end......most do not listen. Those that do are the reasons we keep
trying I guess.
Those that don't ......usually it's because you are not telling them
what they want to hear!!
Many are just hoping that you re-inforce the direction they are going to go
anyway. When
you don't......they suddenly need no more "mentoring".
<G>
The only thing I would add to what Kathaleen and Christine have already said
is
that I really
believe part of being brutally honest is that some dogs and bitches should
just
be eliminated
from breeding.
Many inquire with questions and give me a litany of problems they have had
with
their bitch,
and want to know where to go to avoid them with the next litter.
If a bitch has not been bred......as Kathaleen said it takes a lot of
pre-research.....and even then
it might not work. But it is your responsibility in the end for what she
produces. You have to
find the homes and guarantee the puppies.
Ultimately you must compensate......and go in the direction you have a plan
for
with your lines.
Once a bitch has had a couple of litters.......and gives nothing remarkable
and
good .....and does
produce new problems... or the 'problems of the line'... then I think
it IS time to eliminate her from
further breeding......... and move on.
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.Marhaven.com
----- Original Message -----
From: hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: Kathaleen Strong ; zrockenstein@xxxxxxxxx ; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 3:30 PM
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES
To this I would like to add review Oppenheimer's dog breeding rules,
which parallels much of what
Kathaleen has written. Over the year's the topic of these
"rules" have come up and Peggy M once
tried to open a discussion on one of the lists about these rules..but no
one
seemed interested.
Too bad.
Everyone should have them posted where they can review them regularly. I
hope
the below gets
published..not that it will make a difference. I could go on and on about
the
countless hours,I like
many others have spent writing e-mails, discussing pedigrees, making
breeding
suggestions
(in my case, not to my own dogs), I have even tried to recommend breeding
suggestions for
novices with bitches they have purchased from me..and they still don't
listen!! I have trying to
relegate the "art" of dog breeding into a paint by numbers format,
doesn't work. Bottom line,
you either have the knack for it, or you don't. Newbies are like
children..children come to
parents for advice and more often than not don't take it, like parents,
mentors in the breed try
to give advise based on their past experiences, good or bad and newbie
like
children, have to
do it their way. Which is fine, but newbies should not complain that there
are no mentors..
honestly most have tried and have been unsuccessful, so you just tell
folks
to do what they want
to do as they are going to do that anyway!
I think mybiggest pet peeve is when a newbie buys a bitch from your
breeding
program
and listens to every Tom Dick and Harry( many who happen to own stud dogs)
on
how to breed
the bitch except you, the breeder, whom they got the bitch from!
Christine
hckryhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and Christine
GraingerWWW.HICKORYHILLGSD.COM
> [Original Message]
> From: Kathaleen Strong <inflight@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding--KNOW YOUR PEDIGREES
>
> It's always a good place to start with your bitch. You have to be
brutally> honest in evaluating
your bitch -- take your feelings out of the equation, > take her show
record out of the equation -
review her hip/elbow & health > information and then look at the bitch
as an individual with
nothing other > than her temperament, motion, structure, and overall
breed type - compare
it> to what the standard says is correct, even if you don't like it.
>
> 1) What qualities/faults does she bring to the equation?
> 2) What would you like to change/correct in your bitch in the
resulting> puppies?
> 3) If she has been bred before, what did you try to correct and what
were > the results?
Where you happy with the overall resulting quality of the> litter?
If you haven't bred her before, what are her parents/grandparents>
known to produce
both good and bad? If known, what were your bitch's > littermates
like? (this is important)
What are the health and longevity > strength/weaknesses behind her?
> 4) After you have evaluated all these items when it comes to her, as an
> individual, now look at her pedigree -- what strengths and weaknesses
can
> you determine from it? What incidence of missing teeth, bad bites, down
> ears, long coats, monorchids, hearts, hips/elbows, bloat, and torsion
are
> there in the immediate 3 generations? Is she linebred? How heavily
> (sometimes you have to go back past 4 generations, ie a dog who's
linebred
> on Dog A (5,4,6,5,6,5 - 5,5,4,5,6,5) could be still considered heavily
> linebred)? Is there a portion of her pedigree that you prefer the dogs
in?
> With your brutally honest evaluation of her as an individual, knowing
her
> strengths, weaknesses and areas you'd like to hopefully improve on
in the
> resulting puppies -- look at the pedigree and see if she is typical of
one
> side of the pedigree or the other?
>
> Now looking at the results of those questions -- this should give you a
direction as to
where to start looking. If you have the ideas of what you > want to change
in your bitch,
start looking first at dogs who 1) Compensate > toward correct in these
items and
remember they may or may not themselves be> entirely correct themselves,
but tend to produce it; 2)
After you've> narrowed it down to a few dogs who look like they fit
the bill, answer
> questions 1-4 for the dog also; Be especially cognizant of the pedigree
and
> puppies produced so far. Don't consider your feelings in relation
to the> dog.
Don't consider titles the dog has achieved, these are fluff used to>
sell resulting puppies,
not produce a quality litter. The only things other > than how the dog
himself can help you
compensate for your bitch to consider > are his hip/elbow/health
information, how the
pedigree looks in comparison > to your bitch, what the dog has produced
that you like.
When looking at his> puppies, you should try to determine what the
bitches he was bred to
brought> to the table and what their pedigrees are as well.>
> Talk to the stud dog owners about their dog, and talk to other people
who've > bred their
bitches to the dog. Another thing that should be considered in> the
"compensation" theory,
sometimes breeding a correct bitch to an extreme
> (in some cases not correct) dog is beneficial to bring back angulation,
and > vice versa.
Also it is important to note there is a theory, that if left to >
Nature's devices, dogs would
revert to look more like wild canines -- tall > on leg, straight in
angulation -- that as breeders
we have to utilize some> extremes to keep that type which is recessive in
nature.
>
> I agree with Jamie though -- once you've done all this
evaluation,> discussion and research,
don't over think it. If you listen to your gut > instinct/intuition
you should make a sound choice.
However, if it doesn't > work out, don't beat yourself up;
breeding dogs is the biggest gambling
game > anyone has ever been involved in. Imagine the numbers of dice
you're > rolling at once,
and then remember no matter how much you plan, no matter> how good it
looks on paper, no
matter how "it should have worked" ==
> sometimes it just doesn't. Try again. If you have some luck going
yourway,
> your research will pay off with a litter of healthy, quality pups with
maybe > a few "stars" in it.
>
> Kathaleen
>
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is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original
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ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
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is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any
kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of
the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
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is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION
OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND
IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED.
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POST is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
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