[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Breeding & Lines & problems
- From: "Carolyn" <marhaven@xxxxxxx>
- To: "barbarar" <domara4@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2004 13:16:05 -0800
You can breed a gene into a dog who does not have it with one that does, \and
not even know you did it. barbarar
*****************************************
No.....you cannot breed the gene INTO the DOG if it does not have it. You CAN
however pick it up in the litter by breeding it in with a dog that does.
I cannot breed the solid black factor into a bitch that does not carry
it......I CAN
however pick it up in a litter from a dog that DOES carry it.... and utilize
one from
that litter that does carry it and breed to a dog that does carry it and
.....walla.....
black pups. Because there are black pups in a litter ( or M.E. ) does
not mean
every pup is a carrier.....
In other words.......good or bad......a dog DOES have the gene, or it does
not.
Black & white......now what you pick up and get in 8 pups.....another story.
<G>
Finding out if that dog DOES or does NOT carry that gene is a LONG
story.....<G>
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxx
http://www.marhaven.com/bookerskids.htm
Carolyn wrote:
This post from Syd really struck me. Notice that she started out with Elbow
problems
and then from same line got hip problems, from similar line with different sire
she
got cleft palates and M.E........next litter bad hips......then bloat...and I
read
this as
coming down a same line with some different parents or outcrosses along the way.
Now it seems to me Syd got hit with just about every problem imagineable...but
none really the SAME. So if you decide the pedigree on the first dog has
elbow
problems and should be eliminated....but she continued on with different sires
she doesn't get hit with Elbows....she gets hit with H.D. Rids that bitch and
goes
to
a different sire line and gets hit with Cleft palates and M.E....then back to
hip
problems with different bitches.......after loosing the original to bloat...
What are we going to tell her........get out of breeding......get rid of the
bloodline
that is now in her pedigree today.....if it is....or she done good, carry on?
The only way to rid a problem is to use animals that do not carry the gene.
Right
now in yr. 2004 the only way to find out, is to breed them. We cannot utilize
the
DNA markers if we don't have them.
We all love getting a litter with no problems......no problems at all.... from
a ring
tail to a health problem. Even then, could be the litter mate you kept, does,
or
does
not, carry the evil gene......it will take breeding to know at this place in
time.
Could be in a great litter with NO HEALTH ISSUES you can see, but the one you
keep for breeding IS the one that picked up the bad gene from one parent, and
you get hit with something you've never had before, or thought you were rid of.
Remember.....you CANNOT BREED A GENE INTO A DOG! It must already be there.
IF the littermate in a disaster litter did NOT inherit the disaster gene....you
still
won't
GET the problem from that dog unless you breed it to a dog that IS a carrier of
that
gene..... whether outcross or linebred.....then some of the pups will be
carriers
again.
Even backmassing or linebreeding on that line won't give you the problems as
long
as the dogs you use are not carriers. Even outcrossing WILL give you the
problem
IF the dogs are carriers. It's a process of elimination and to eliminate you
have to
identify who the carriers are.....and that is not easy.....and all through this
maze
of genes we are looking for the perfect show/ working/ family dog.
Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxx
http://www.marhaven.com/bookerskids.htm
From: <Santanagsd1954@xxxxxx>To: <Elsyd1@xxxxxxx>; <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Don't blow your mind! ...when I first got into shepherds (about 30 years
ago), I lost almost my entire first litter to elbow dysplasia. The male who
survived became my first Ch, and produced a Ch. . The litttermate female
produced > a Ch. with Masarati, the rest of the 2 litters from her all had HD.
She
was
spayed as soon as I could make myself aaccept that she was the problem. She
was OFA good. My third litter (different dad) was almost entirely lost from
a > combination of cleft palate and mega. My forth (again) all had bad hips.
Different bitches, as my first bitch ended up dying from bloat. I have had
very > few (almost none) of these problems in the past 15 years. The parents
were
free from the problems, but, boy, they sure carried them. It was a
nightmare > years ago. It is definately better now, I am almost totally free
from
these > problems, and so are most of my friends. We are definately trying
harder..... > Syd
SYD MAILBERG 425-432-4144
23910 SE 276TH ST
MAPLE VALLEY, WA 98038
Updated
Syd: I'd love to have copies of those pedigrees.. Seriously!!
In my personal opinion, when you have a litter with such terrible
problems, none of their littermates should ever be used for breeding as you
don't
know who among the survivors are the carriers.
When we get DNA Markers then we can hope to identify the carriers that
appear not be affected physically, so we can see if they are genetically
affected. But that is a way off... so I am Really Interested in knowing how you
got
to
the Shepherds you have now, without these problems... I think it would be a
good lesson for all especially the new people.. on the List.
Did these Shepherds produce more problems such as those that appeared in
their litters, when they were bred to others??
How did you clean up the problems?
Did you stay with the same bloodlines??
Did you outcross?
It is Very interesting and would be very helpful to learn how you bred away
from those problems..This is the kind of information we need... . Thanks!!
barb
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--
Barbara R. icq#14282540
domara4@xxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.domara.com (beautiful GSDs, where form follows function)
http://barbrazart.netfirms.com/animalportraits/index.htm
(watercolor, pastel, oil, acrylic paintings)
http://barbrazart.netfirms.com/
"I haven't lost my mind, it's backed up on disk somewhere"
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POST is Copyrighted 2004. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx
VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org
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