[ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Anatomy discussion
- From: "Pam Stoesser" <pkstoesser@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 15:56:21 -0600
Most of the critiques that are written, in my opinion, are far from
meaningful for a reason. Nobody wants to really know what you thought of
their dog - unless, of course, it's glowing. That's why the critiques all
tend to sound alike. I think the best way I've heard it described is "You
can tell people that their children are knock-kneed and ugly but don't
criticize their dog."
There are no perfect dogs if you compare them to the Standard, although some
come closer than others. It's hard to do an honest critique without
mentioning faults, even if you phrase it in a positive way.
If people all understood what "short in the front" really meant, there would
be fewer pictures of dogs in motion in the Review.
In my opinion, the only time most judges can give an honest critique is
right after the class has completed. I think most good judges can
communicate what their thoughts are during the show if people are paying
attention. It's one of the things I've always loved about watching good
judges.
The other memorable quote, I've kept in mind all these years is that "good
judges get the best ones up front, even though they might differ in the
order".
I've heard over the years that the differences are based on politics. In
some cases, I've found that to be true and don't show to those judges.
Most of the time, I think it's an internal priority of which faults are more
serious among what the Standard ranks equally. One might find a dead tail
more offensive; one might find a slight give in the back more offensive.
Both would be based on consideration of the purpose of the breed. If one
animal is short in the front, affecting their movement, is that more serious
than another animal that is weak in the rear, affecting their movement in a
different way? Both are serious faults according to the Standard.
The one thing that's consistent is that some dog has to win and that dog
will probably not be perfect. The corollary is that you can only judge
what's in the ring. These days with declining entries, sometimes you just
hope that a dog will come into the ring that honestly deserves to win.
Just my thoughts. Pam
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Cochran
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 11:30 AM
To: janandmort@xxxxxxx ; edangsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Anatomy discussion
WE MUST KNOW WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS AND WHY.
Time may hopefully come when a judge will be REQUIRED to give a MEANINGFUL
critique after each class and then we will see a renewed enthusiasm from all
and this will be a stimulus for new people to join as they understand what
the judge saw and why the placements were given. That is a battle as the AKC
does not approve but where there is a will there is a way
I can't wait!!!!!!!
Is there anything in the AKC rules of judging that says that you can not do
this? Can the regional clubs require that the judges give a critique?
Thanks
Terry
________________________________
From: morton goldfarb <janandmort@xxxxxxx>
To: edangsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 8:49 AM
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Anatomy discussion
Hi Ann,
I agree with you and must add that the phenotype(what you see) should
resemble the background animals(genotype) if those qualities are to come to
the forefront. Close line breeding on what you desire is the way to see if
your partners exhibit those qualities BUT there are so many variables in the
genetic link.
The Standard is just what should be--- but the eye of the evaluator is what
is important and each animal is judged according to the standard and there
are objective criteria that are "measurable" not by a protractor but by the
experience of those evaluating.
I was fortunate enough to be asked to apply for my full German judging
license which means being able to judge in Germany as well as all other
countries. I had my AKC judging certificate 3 years before I was evaluated
in Germany.
I had to have 6 apprentice shows and write up each dog judged in German and
submit this to the Breed Board for approval. These evaluations were written
appraisals of each animal in descending position. So the descriptions had to
include each compared to the standard. This also had to be done at ringside
following each class from 1 to the last one judged.
Where is all this leading??
WE MUST KNOW WHAT THE STANDARD SAYS AND WHY.
Time may hopefully come when a judge will be REQUIRED to give a MEANINGFUL
critique after each class and then we will see a renewed enthusiasm from all
and this will be a stimulus for new people to join as they understand what
the judge saw and why the placements were given. That is a battle as the AKC
does not approve but where there is a will there is a way!!!
Thanks,
Morton
What was was, what is is --but what was is and what is was!!
Morton Goldfarb
-----Original Message-----
From: edangsd <edangsd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: janandmort <janandmort@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Sat, Jan 14, 2012 2:00 am
Subject: Re: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Anatomy discussion
Mort,
I don't study the standard and maybe I should, but I look for an animal that
works like a well oiled machiine, fluid and athletic in movement with an
outline
pleasing to the eye. It might not work for everybody, but it works for me.
I am
also very critical of faults in my animals and not only look at the dog I am
breeding to, to correct them , but what is behind them. I find they often
produce their pedigree rather then themselves.
Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: "morton goldfarb" <janandmort@xxxxxxx>
To: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2012 10:17:58 PM
Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Anatomy discussion
I really appreciate the interest and comments by all that this thread has
produced. We need this type of discussions.
A comment was made about the neck angle and croup angle being equal. The
neck
angles are so variable at all times and the only thing consistent is the
number
of vertebra.
I certainly can conceive at some point that they may be equal but not as a
standard point of reference.
The croup needs to be judged in motion as the position of the rear legs
influences the angle when the dog is stationary but not when in motion!!
If we must compare angles then compare the croup angle with the angle of the
pasterns as they are very similar.
According to the literature the croup should be 23 degrees and according to
the
FCI standard the pastern angle is 20 degrees and the AKC standard is 25
degrees
so the middle is 22.5 BUT WHO PUTS A PROTRACTOR on any angle --it is the
eyes of
the beholder.
The neck angle is extremely variable in all circumstances.
Another point discussed at length is the forequarter.
If the animal is correct with proper power from the hindquarter over a
strong
back to a proper forehand the front foot extension should only extend to the
tip
of the nose when the animal is in a correct trot.
The best work explaining form and function is by Italian authors Bonetti and
Gorrieri.
Thanks,
Morton
What was was, what is is --but what was is and what is was!!
Morton Goldfarb
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--
Ann
www.edangsd.com
Home of AOE Sel Ex Ch Gilley,Sel Ex Ch Maxwell,Sel Ch Kobe and Sel Ch MmmMmm
Good, #1 dam Muggles, Breeder-owner 0f 72 champions and 19 ROMs.
Proud receipient of Lloyd Brackett Award
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Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and
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POST is Copyrighted 2011. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any
kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of
the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and
its administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions
expressed in any post.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
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POST is Copyrighted 2011. All material remains the property of the original
author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind
are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the
Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Each Author is responsible for the content of his/her post. This group and its
administrators are not responsible for the comments or opinions expressed in
any post.
ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY
MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS
PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY
FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE
PROSECUTED.
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