Jane... your post was very thoughtful and well written...and in real life I am not a judge either although I play one on "the list"...I have gone to many shows where I did not think the best dog won...I have won a few and said to my friend and handler that I did not believe I had the best dog at the show....were all of these judges "crooked"....absolutely not...at most shows there are several very good and sometimes great representatives of what a German Shepherd is...most so-called crooked judges don't put up unworthy dogs....but they have agendas...and their agenda does not include finding the best dog that day based on their understanding of our standard.....that's why during a two show weekend on one day "Fido" can go winners dog and the next day he can go third in his class....were either of the two judges dishonest.....hopefully no they weren't...individual interpretation and subjectivity both play a determining factor in our sport....crooks don't usually put up bad dogs....incompetent judges do...but that's a whole nother topic....Ed Jane Kerner <jkerner@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: I am an exhibitor.......not a judge. I have no judging license to "level the playing field". Let me try and understand what is being alleged here? I am just wondering? ........are any successes and/or losses that I, or anyone, may have had through the years the result of "crooked" judging? And, if you believe that my (or someone else's) dogs have won because of "crooked" judges and that they did not win on their own merit because of their quality...........what must you think of any of the breeding programs of any one who has achieved a modicum of success in the breed ring? You don't think their dogs deserve the successes achieved? You think the dogs were not worthy? If the judging is "crooked", then the dogs who are winning are not deserving. No? Perhaps we should start giving name to the "undeserving dogs"..........it would help to identify these "dishonest" judges. If someone would start naming "undeserving" dogs who have been successful in the breed ring, then we will be able to give names to the judges who are "crooked". No? I have always valued the Red Book and the information it offers. It is a breeder's hand book and a wealth of information for those who will read. The results are tabulated more than one way. Are the dogs in the Red Book included in the tabulations because "crooked" judges have given them titles they don't deserve? Could someone name a deserving dog who should have finish his Championship and didn't because of "crooks" in the center of the ring? This sword which has been unsheathed cuts both ways. Jane Kerner ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - URL temporarily deleted due to AOL issues ============================================================================ ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2006. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - URL temporarily deleted due to AOL issues ============================================================================