Rob, Could your grandfather have played under another name? It would not have been unusual for 1912-1914 as athletes were not looked upon as very respectable. Pennock pitched for the A's at that time but I can't find a "Lilley" in the Baseball Encyclopedia. Your grandfathers appraisal of the ball players agrees with my grandfather who as a Med student at Northwestern from 1902-1907 played on the baseball team. Back in those days the pros would work out with the college kids prior to reporting to the Majors...the Spring Training of the day. My grandfather was a pitcher and played alongside "Three Finger" Mordecai Brown, Ed Reulbach and many of the other Chicago Cubs...This was the team that comprised the Cub's last World Championship.. I often as a kid would ask him what it was like playing with those guys? "They were all scoundrels!" he answered with a twinkle in his eyes....Granddad never used tobacco or alcohol in his entire life. jon --- Rollei List - Post to rollei_list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx - Subscribe at rollei_list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'subscribe' in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org - Unsubscribe at rollei_list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org - Online, searchable archives are available at //www.freelists.org/archives/rollei_list