[rollei_list] Re: More R and H price comparisons and production figures
- From: "Richard Knoppow" <dickburk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <rollei_list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:24:40 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: "CarlosMFreaza" <cmfreaza@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <rollei_list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 6:24 AM
Subject: [rollei_list] More R and H price comparisons and
production figures
While I'm waiting for my ordered prices lists, I found some
data about
the Hasselblad 500C price in 1957 with the numbers in DM,
Deutsche
Mark, it allows a direct comparison with the Rollei prices
in the
Report 2, also in DM.
A basic 500 C kit in 1957 costed DM 2000, the more expensive
Rolleiflex model from 1956 to 1959 was the Rolleiflex 2.8E,
it costed
DM 820 with Planar 2.8/80 lens and built-in lightmeter.
Hasselblad sold 3000 1600F cameras from 1948 to 1952 and
10000 1000F
(it costed about U$S 400) from 1952 to 1957, 13,000 cameras.
F&H manufactured 517,470 TLR cameras from October 1949 up to
the
ending of 1956 and then these production figures don't
include great
success cameras like the F, T, and Rolleicord Va and Vb, to
no mention
Rolleimagics, Wide, Tele and E2 and E3 models.
Hasselblad 500C cameras were bought and had great initial
success for
fashion photography and studio work, Rollei TLR _never was a
studio
camera_ .
BTW, beyond the Japanese competition, the TLR camera as
design idea
was losing popularity during the sixties and seventies and
it affected
the TLR cameras in general. Rollei tried to keep their TLR
professional and advanced amateur market up to the eighties
manufacturing F models and Tele and Rolleicords and T during
the
seventies, but the production had no comparison point with
the
production figures during fifties and early sixties; they
even sold
special Rolleicord Vb and T kits for the schools, but the
35mm cameras
with the very significant improvements for 35 film quality
destroyed
the advanced amateur market for Rollei TLR and then the
Rollei 35 and
Rollei QBM mount cameras.
Carlos
2010/3/26 CarlosMFreaza <cmfreaza@xxxxxxxxx>:
Austin:
When you talk about market strategies, the words exact
meaning could vary regarding their real meaning.
Rolleiflex was born
as an advanced amateur camera for the pre-war market,
professional
cameras were the Large Format cameras as Richard K
explained very
well, Hasselblad cameras did not exist at the time.
Due to the quality of its construction and the TLR compact
format and
no black-out issue and MF frame size advantages for
certain kind of
works , Rollei TLR cameras were adopted for
photojournalism, fashion
photography, scientific work, artistic author photography,
etc.,
Rollei became a pro camera for those uses mainly, but F&H
never
abandoned their original market, the dedicated/advanced
amateur
photographer, the Rollei TLR was a success for decades and
they
manufactured models thought for different targets but
keeping the
main features and the quality for every model, Rollei had
a mass
production and there were up to almost 3000 workers during
the "golden
age".
Mamiya "Professional" was a marketing concept, the lenses
at the time
were not as good as Zeiss and Schneider lenses but they
were good
enough for several uses where the final product, f.e. a
printed page,
could not reflect the quality difference as Allen
commented about the
Yashica TLR, anyway I'd say the Mamiya lenses were better
than the
Yashica lenses from the beginning; in general, Japanese
lenses were
very good copies from the original German designs during
the fifties.
Mamiya Flex C cameras were cheaper than Rolleis as
Prochnow explained
regarding the Japanese assault to the world market and it
had
interchangeable lenses and bellows for close-up images (I
wrote
"folded" because I copied the info), it was the real
competition for
the Rolleiflex TLR for decades, not only during the
fifties.-
Carlos
2010/3/26 Austin Franklin <austin.franklin@xxxxxxxxxxx>:
Hi Carlos,
From what I remember of the Mamiya, the lenses were not
near as good as the
Hasselblad or Rollei 80 Planar. It would be interesting
to see a
comparison. It wasn't folding but had a bellows. And, it
was called a
"professional", which if the Rollei was an "advanced
amateur" market camera,
then I'm not sure how that all fits...seems like it would
be more
competition to Hasselblad than Rollei.
But, certainly the Mamiya displaced some Rollei sales,
and perhaps more than
Hasselblads did. But, Hasselblads certainly did displace
some Rollei sales.
Personally, given the lense quality, I wouldn't have
considered (and never
did consider) the Mamiya when considering a Rollei (or a
Hasselblad)
alternative. I saw only one Mamiya TLR used in my entire
life at a wedding
in North Carolina many many years ago. But, I do remember
hearing they were
"popular", but in my experience, the Hasselblad was far
more popular.
Do you happen to have any price information from
1958-1960 on the Mamiya?
Any sales figures?
Regards,
Austin
-----Original Message-----
From: rollei_list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:rollei_list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
CarlosMFreaza
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 9:04 AM
To: rollei_list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [rollei_list] Re: Decline of Rollieflex/Film
Austin:
I have ordered right now Hasselblad and Rolleiflexes
prices
list from 1957 to 1960, you'll see the prices difference
between the
500C and the top of the lines Rolleiflexes, your
approach on this
issue is wrong from the beginning.
Your question is very easy to answer, in 1957 Mamiya
entered at the
professional market in a big way, with the giant "C"
series of folding
models with interchangeable lens sets, eventually
ranging from 55mm to
250mm. Mamiya had started to manufacture low end TLR
cameras from
1948, but the serious problem for Rollei was this Mamiya
Flex C
Professional TLR 6x6cm in 1957 with interchangeable
lenses, it was
the reason Rollei developed its own TLR with
interchangeable lenses
and making a new error, they decided to produce the
Rollei Wide and
the Tele Rolleiflex abandoning the interchangeable lens
prototype
ready for production.
This Mamiya camera was the main competition for the
Rolleiflex from
1957 and not the Hasselblad 500 C.
Carlos
Check publications like _U.S.Camera Annual_ for the
credits given for photographs. The annual reproduced both
journalistic and commercial photographs of the year. The are
several years during the mid 1940s to late 1960s where the
greatest number of pictures that mention the camera type
were made using Rolleiflex cameras. Probably the most common
one after that was the Speed Graphic. Advertising pictures
of the period were mostly made with large-format view or
studio cameras but fashion photography shows an increasing
number being made with Rolleis.
I think what cut into Rollei sales was the general move
to 35mm. One of the most influential cameras was the Nikon
F-1. This was about the first "modern" single lens reflex in
that it had an instant return mirror and other features
missing on earlier SLRs regardless of format. Nikon
displaced most other 35mm cameras until it was displaced in
turn by Canon, who had a better sales organization. The
German camera industry never caught up.
Because Hasselblad was always an expensive camera it
was mostly used by professional photographers. BTW, the
1600F is the one that I was talking about when I said the
early shutters were very prone to break. Hasselblad soon
discontinued this model and went to a shutter limited to
1/1000th second, which proved much more reliable.
Hasselblad's were mostly sold to pro's who used them in
controlled settings although not necessarily in a studio.
They are noisy cameras, especially those with focal plane
shutters where the Rolleiflex is nearly silent. That can be
a critical feature for some types of work.
About the only competition the Hasselblad had was the
Exakta 66 which also had a reputation for being mechanically
unreliable. It was not a long-lived camera.
Nikon established itself with the first Nikon
rangefinder camera, I've now forgotten the model number,
which featured an f/1.4 lens based on the Zeiss Sonar. These
were very good performers and many were adapted to the Leica
M-2/M-3.
Keep in mind that in the mid-1950s a great many new
cameras, especially those made by the Japanese, came on the
market and offered pretty stiff competition to both German
and USA makers, and indeed, Hasselblad.
--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickburk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
---
Rollei List
- Post to rollei_list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Subscribe at rollei_list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'subscribe'
in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org
- Unsubscribe at rollei_list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with
'unsubscribe' in the subject field OR by logging into www.freelists.org
- Online, searchable archives are available at
//www.freelists.org/archives/rollei_list
Other related posts:
