[rollei_list] Re: Enlarger versus printer?
- From: Robert Meier <robertmeier@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: rollei_list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 12:14:35 -0500 (CDT)
Bob,
The only thing you can do is make Ilfochrome prints from your slides (used to
be called Cibachrome). I made Cibachromes back in the 90's and they were
fairly easy to do, but I don't even know if Ilford is still making the
chemicals and paper any more.
Robert
On Oct 30, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Bob James wrote:
> Kirk and Robert,
>
> I am definitely sold on the black and white chemical print formed within the
> emulsion. What is the process/paper called to get a color slide image made
> in the same way. NOT the inkjet way.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob Jamea
>
>
>
> On Oct 29, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Robert Meier <robertmeier@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Bob
>>
>> I think the difference you are seeing is real and its cause is a physical
>> difference between the two kinds of prints. In an inkjet print, in either
>> color or B&W, the ink or pigment is applied to the top surface of the
>> printing paper and that is where it dries, and so the image is an image on
>> top of the paper. In a B&W chemical print, the image is formed within the
>> emulsion, which is on the top surface of the paper, but the image is not on
>> the top, but is within that top layer. The difference is subtle, but quite
>> noticeable, especially when you compare two prints of the same image, one
>> inkjet and one chemical, side by side. I have done this quite a few times
>> because I keep wanting the inkjet print to be as good as the chemical, or
>> darkroom print, but it never is. The inkjet print, which looks fine on its
>> own, suddenly looks rather flat and lifeless when I look at it next to a
>> darkroom print.
>>
>> I'm talking about fiber base darkroom prints, but the same thing happens,
>> perhaps to a lesser degree, with a good RC print, such as an Ilford
>> Multifrade RC print.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> On Oct 29, 2011, at 7:47 PM, Kirk Thompson wrote:
>>
>>> A few thoughts; some may have better ideas:
>>>
>>> 1. To some extent, what you observed is just a difference between BW &
>>> highly saturated color. Large areas of saturated color will force you to
>>> see an image in a more 2D way, as if it were an abstract expressionist
>>> painting.
>>>
>>> 2. Also it's about the combination of film and printing process. Don't
>>> expect too much from hyper-color films like Velvia & Ektar 100 with inkjet
>>> printing. These films generate more color saturation than most of us are
>>> aware of in the mind's eye. As the Wiki puts it, Velvia 50 'has brighter
>>> and generally more accurate color reproduction (though many see its high
>>> color saturation as unrealistic).' That's why some folks call it
>>> 'Velveeta.'
>>>
>>> Highly saturated images push scanners and inkjet printers to the limits of
>>> their gamut or beyond, especially in the hands of commercial or amateur
>>> printers. At that point, tonal differentiations collapse into relatively
>>> undifferentiated blobs of color, and the sense of 3-dimensionality
>>> contributed by gentler tonal shifts is reduced.
>>>
>>> To make color film and printing work together as a system, one has to work
>>> from the strengths of both. Slide film has a greater Dmax, because you
>>> don't print from an orange film base. With reversal film, Ciba/Ilfochrome
>>> was complementary in the sense that what you saw in the slide seemed to be
>>> carried out in the printing process. But inkjet prints from scanned slides
>>> don't always give that satisfaction.
>>>
>>> Inkjet/giclee printing has other strengths, especially in the midrange of
>>> saturation. An inkjet printer can produce subtle colors and tonal
>>> gradations, but these will come from a color film that 'wants' to be
>>> treated that way, for example the new Portra negative films (supposedly
>>> improved for scanning). Color negative films, with more latitude but less
>>> Dmax, can yield great inkjet color prints. If you put a gentler film
>>> together with the subtler printing process, you'll get smoother tonal
>>> gradations and more interesting colors (from some people's standpoint); and
>>> also you'll maximize the 3D appearance of your prints – though it may still
>>> not match what you appreciate in BW.
>>>
>>> 3. For high saturation you could try Type C color prints. The late Galen
>>> Rowell used Velvia and ended up having it laser-printed on Type C Fuji
>>> Crystal Archive paper by Pictopia.
>>>
>>> Kirk
>>>
>>> > Subject: [rollei_list] Enlarger versus printer?
>>> > From: starboy0@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> > Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 15:57:53 -0500
>>> > To: rollei_list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> >
>>> > So I have now sent 7 rolls through the Rollei TLR. 6 rolls of black and
>>> > white and 1 of Velvia 50.
>>> >
>>> > I have a number of full frame prints from those rolls on 11x14 fiber
>>> > paper. I have noticed something quite different between the black and
>>> > white prints and the color prints. I'm wondering why? And if it's just an
>>> > incorrect perception.
>>> >
>>> > The color prints made from the slides are technically perfect: colors
>>> > spot on with that Velvia saturation and the resolution perfect. But I
>>> > think these were printed with ink and to me there is a flat look to them.
>>> >
>>> > The black and whites were printed with an enlarger and have a luminous
>>> > quality that the color prints don't. I'm wondering what is causing that
>>> > perception? Something real or just expectations.
>>> >
>>> > I have been in and out of photography since the 60's and one of my "out"
>>> > phases was just recently when digital took over. I am completed ignorant
>>> > of the differing technologies used to make prints these days.
>>> >
>>> > In any case I just got a Rollei for that bigger negative size and of
>>> > course it is a camera I have dreamed of having since I was a little kid.
>>> >
>>> > Take care,
>>> > Bob James
>>
Other related posts:
