[realmusicians] Re: prayers for hospital visit and a little update

  • From: Roy Shtupler <shtupler@xxxxxxx>
  • To: realmusicians@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 02:47:36 +0200

hi DJX
am now working with Reason 6 , also trying out ways of rewiring things.
have you still got these templates?
did you use sighted assistance when creating them?
thanks a bunch
----- Original Message ----- From: "D!J!X!" <megamansuperior@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <realmusicians@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 1:59 AM
Subject: [realmusicians] Re: prayers for hospital visit and a little update

I agree, if you use and own many DXI synths, you might wanna stick to 32bit
OS, whether it's xp or 7.
I've always used vst for my work, so that helped my transition.
There is a way of getting dx plugs to show up as vst's, not sure how well it works though; I remember reading about it on the cw forums a while back this

Regarding reason, I use to use it for years, many projects, I had templates
and such done for wiring stuff and different synths, but it was always
unstable, would sometimes crash, sometimes it wouldn't open though sonar was
calling to it, and it was just a pain to setup.
After awhile I determine that because of accessibility and the hassles, it
wasn't worth it, I was moving to better things anyways, the kick came when
hypersonic, my motif, and then omnisphere came along, and a few other plugs
that I use for my hip hop stuff.

Propellerheads themselves are not really to interested in accessibility,
from what I read somebody from there is interested, because of a school that
wants to start teaching it but it must be able to teach a blind student.
It's the same story iZotope gave us, we're all on the beta team, but
nothing's been done since the first few releases last year!

But you're right, the audio world is one of those, where the saying truly
applies, if it aint broke, don't fix it; if it works for now, don't upgrade!

Regards, D!J!X!

-----Original Message-----
From: realmusicians-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:realmusicians-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Belle
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 5:35 PM
To: realmusicians@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [realmusicians] Re: prayers for hospital visit and a little update

Yes, i must give omnisphere a go, i mastered something Greg Bradon did with
omnisphere, and that thing has some nice sounds in it.

I do like the slice management and drum regeneration stuff in reason, but
your right, all that stuff can be re-created in sonar, you just have to roll
your own, like sending different eq bands of a synth to diferent buses and
affecting each part differently.

the little I've done with rewire worked ok for me, didn't crash, but i
haven't done it long enough to really comment.

the main reason I'm kind of interested in reason now is that they seem to be
giving a nod to access, and wanting our input and well, we'll see how it
goes, we've heard that story before haven't we?

I need to make myself work in win7 more, but I just don't wan to trust
projects to it yet, since I tend to use lots of old plugs as well as new
ones, and is really weird, you know with old soundforge 7 the dxi noise
reduction will work with w7 but usually normal 32 bit dxi stuff won't work?

I think w8 is trying to be a mac clone.

If someone would write a good wrapper for dxi plugs for w7, I'd probably
switch and try working with it all the time.

but i like my rx loops and my sound fonts, and older plugs and as long as
everything will work with xp, I'll take her just a little furtherdown the

When I checked a couple months ago xp was still the most popular os on the
planet, that's changing slowly of course, because most folks don't buy
custom machines like we do but buy off the shelf pre-loaded and of course
they're going to have the latest stuf they're trying to sell on it.

We've got a couple more years on xp probably.

YOu know all the new driver technology like wasapi and waves rt and such
doesn't seem like the audio interface folks are adopting those standards too quickly, it's still asio and wdm, that was the big grab when xp came around.

But specialty stuff is always very conservative and so are corporations,
they are the last to adopt massive changes, and don't want to upgrade lots
of machines for lots of expense until they have to.

YOu know i don't know why software vendors don't jus keep selling everything
they ever made, even if they have to drop support for some things

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to go buy a legit copy of an older package
instead of borrowing it someplace because you couldn't find it anymore?

Seems pretty sily to me.

but hey, that's just how it goes.

At 03:06 PM 11/12/2011, you wrote:
Well vista's kernel was more of the rewrite, yes windows7 is just an
improved vista, what vista should have always been.
Windows8 will be more of a mess, seeing as it's trying to cover all
sorts of platforms and systems, from the mainstream pc CPU, to the
mobile processors, the tablets etc.
They're making lots of changes, which while some are good, others are
probably a step backwards.
If history teaches something us about ms though, every other OS is an
epic fail; hope windows8 isn't one of those... Most of us think xp
good, vista bad, win7 good...
Not sure how all these new things like desktop apps and the fact that
most of it uses javascript and html5 and web tools will work, it could
be a potential mess...
But then again, things must move forward and improve...

Not sure on the screen reader front, I mainly use jaws12 with win7,
haven't really had probs there either, well nothing that can't be blame
on fs's lack of inovation and true "upgrade."

As for reason, been using it with rewire since 2.5, but about a year
ago I dropped reason (rewire has always been to unstable and buggy),
and actually found replacement for in omnisphere; what a synth!
Played with reason6, but not impressed, same stuff is still mainly
there, the biggest selling point from  4-5 is the addition of audio
recording and the long overdue 64bit addition.
I did rewire on 64bit, but no improvement there either, still unstable
(IMO), so nothing to be had...

Regards, D!J!X!

-----Original Message-----
From: realmusicians-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:realmusicians-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Belle
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 12:58 PM
To: realmusicians@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [realmusicians] Re: prayers for hospital visit and a little

Well, yes, you have a valid point especially with the 64 bit native
stuff, but I was speaking in reference to 98 being more or less a dos
shell to xp, and there is really no nt stuff in 98 but there is nt stuff in
and xp so that's why I said they were closer.

I've heard professionals say that w7 is more or less vista fixed up
better and I've heard it's a complete re-write, so hard to say on that one.

The reason I'm thinking w8 might be a good thing is leaning towards the
bios going away, which needed to happen for years, those hand off
routines between real mode and windows are the reason we can't easily
just grab our drives and go to anybody's system running windows, and
share production environments, well, one of the main reasons anyway,
since there is so much differing hardware in windows and the mac stuff,
is more controled in the hardware.

No, I'm not about to go buy a protools rig and dump my sonar, not this
year anyway.

Glad you've had good experiences with w7, and probably for sighted
users, it's a lot better, but i think with screen-reader users,
especially with window-eyes right now, the w7 experience is a problem,
I have had lots of issues with my students trying to run w7
64 bit and window-eyes, botched installs, speech going away, and just
weird stuff.

I know they're working on it, and I've played with 32 bit w7 a bit, but
I kind of don't see the point because I don't gain much, and I still
loose some stuff, where with xp,k old as it is will still be a good
choice for a couple of generations of machines more, and it runs
everything old and new with the most stability.

If you need to load up huge sample libraries and disk streaming isn't
fast enough, then by all means, w7 64 bit.

I have all three, and I use both jaws, window-eyes and nvda, and xp for
my needs, and that's running lots of plugs and tracks still gives me
the best experience on my hardware.

Mind you, although i use jaws for some things, and I really dig the new
ocr feature, I'm running window-eyes most of the time because I like
it's exploration features and unless I have to arm and manipulate a lot
of tracks at once, I tend to use window-eyes just because it's what I
like, and I like my ahk scripts better than some of the hotspot clicker
stuff especially for sessiondrummer 3 and jaws kind of gets in the way
with it's keyboard driver to those scripts sometimes.

But to it's credit jaws seems to be more stable with w7 64 but I'm
stubborn and will probably hang with xp as long as i can until the
hardware issues get too hairy, my mackie onyx 1640i works great on all
platforms, haven't had firewire issues.
I've got something strange going on right now where the sonar reg
cwaccess window just isn't working for my 32 bit w7 drive, I may try
and install it again and see if it's just something that went weird in
the install, but right now, got too much work going on, but I have the
feeling windows 8 may be a winner.

If ms follows it's tread of doing one good os and a dud and then a good
w8 with efi may make a lot of things run better.

but then we'll need new machines so they're going to have to support
the bios for a long time yet, since these kinds of legacy machines will
be around for a long time.

Now talking about something I'm completely impressed with because it's
free and litle and out performs the big guys on many tasks is nvda.

If there was only a way to do precise navigation with the mouse pixel
by pixel or make it work with sonar, Gord said he'sd had some success
with python but I never could get anything going, granted I haven't
tried that hard.

But we're kind of at a crossroads with everything right now what with
x1 not really being ready for us, and reaper being too under featured
and undocumented, and protools in development, I guess it's anybody's
guess wha the next tools will be.

Vic seems to be  enchanted  with the iphone ipad stuff, but I'm not
ready to go there yet.

Now have you messed with reason yet?

Even with limited access and using rewire with sonar, just getting at
the synth patches alone is fun.

Again, xp worked great, those trying to do it with w7 had trouble.

I just need to figure out how to access the multiple rewire channels so
I don't have to just dump down my mixes and re-inserting reason again
and again since you can't have more than one instance of rewire for
reason at a time.

all that being said, I'm supprised at the old stuff that does work well
on w7, like the old prisey cd burner, old versions of soundforge, and
narrator even in w7 will read things that window-eyes or jaws won't
isn't that interesting?

It certainly is helpful in getting your butt out of trouble when either
jaws or window-eyes quits speaking.

Nvda is good for that too.

At 10:36 AM 11/12/2011, you wrote:
>I begg to differ Chris, windows 9x and xp were a year or so apart in
>technology, xp and 7 are over 5 years apart, and not only that, the
>amount of technology improvements that happened through that time was
>greater than the leep from 9x to nt based systems.
>This is why a kernel rewrite was in store.
>That's where most problems came in, kernel rewrites will always be a
>hurtle, and will sometimes mean leaving certain things behind to
>improve and introduce others.
>Most problems could be related to folks wanting to use 64bit as
>oppose to 32, but that platform change will bring issues whether you
>are using xp, vist or 7, it's a whole different platform.
>If you want to start working with win7, start with 32bit, and then
>move on from there once you are use to it.
>I don't mean use 32bit programs on 64bit, I mean run a native 32bit
>version of win7. Some stuff will not work still, but quite a bit will.
>Don't forget all the tweaks and other things that we have available
>to make
things work.
>Now, I'm not claiming that win7 is the best thing ever, it has its
>bugs and issues, just like xp did, and just like every other
>microsoft software did, but it is quite an improvement.
>I've been using and tweaking it since its beta days, and I've yet to
>have any major problems with it; I've built quite a few daws on win7,
>and regular home/office systems, and haven't had any complaints yet.
>The biggest thing in my case was having to use legacy firewire
>drivers instad for my focusrite saffire pro40; a problem yes, but it
>has a workaround. We all know microsoft hasn't really got this
>firewire thing down anyways; but why should they, it's a mac product >lol.
>But anyways, I just wanted to bring up a few points in favor of
>moving forward (not saying you're wrong or that your points aren't
>valid), but to present both sides of the story, so that newcomers or
>average readers on these lists/forums can see both sides and choose.
>At the end of the day, windows7, xp, 98, mac or linux, whatever
>you're using, if it works, that's all that matters!
>But XP's life support will end soon (if they don't change it again),
>and we'll need somewhere else to go; I've seen windows8, holding my
>cards on it, though, it doesn't convince me yet.
>Just my humble opinion, D!J!X!
>-----Original Message-----
>From: realmusicians-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:realmusicians-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Belle
>Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 4:38 AM
>To: realmusicians@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [realmusicians] Re: prayers for hospital visit and a little
>I heard a preview alpha demo of windows 8 done by someone and even
>narrator is better.
>Lord's I hope you eventually get some situation where you can get
>back to doing some of this studio stuff.
>That's got to be such a bummer.
>Well, you ain't missing much by giving w7 a miss, except a lot of
>Others may be doing better, and I know it's better tech in the way of
>addressing more memory and such, but it's broken a lot of tools.
>It's weird, there was a huge technology change between 98 and xp and
>of course there  are always growing pains but I never saw more
>problems and hardware abandoned type of stuff between xp and w7 even
>though those technologies are closer together.
>And our screenreaders just exaserbate the problem.
>Well, that's encouraging about ms and the guys, to have a real way in
>instead of having to hack around.
>I've read a little about ui and if it's something adopted widely by
>the industry, well, that could make things better for us.
>Let's hope it really happens.
>I understand that all the ms tools development tools use it, the big
>problem is that many of the vendors want to use cross platform tools,
>and much of that stuff is access unfriendly.
>They don't want to have to do the work twice if they're supporting
>mac and such can't blame them.
>But I guess we'll just have to see.
>Stephie is home and resting, she's sore, but she's home now and I can
>look after her.
>Don't know if these botox injections they did more aggressive ones in
>my neck and head this time, are going to work, but they may take a >while.
>My head is sore this morning 'grin'.
>Speaking of musical stuff again, I was trying to use hotspot to get a
>plug-in to be more accessible, and I got her done, but I can't export
>spots properly.
>Aaron says he can't duplicate the problem, but that seems to be the
>big show stopper with hs, everything seems to work reasonably well
>now except importing and exporting.
>At least for me.
>I always though a multi-file approach to hs would have been better,
>instead of shoving everything in to one file.
>I don't know what that would have intailed from a programming
>perspective, but snowy does it this way.
>I guess it's 6 of one half a dozen of another because parsing files
>is pretty standard stuff anyway, but maybe it would have allayed some
>export problems.
>Just a thought.
>I need to revisit that at some point.
>Have a great morning.
>At 09:32 PM 11/11/2011, you wrote:
> >Hey Chris,
> >
> >Yeah, Win 7 is iffy at best. Not getting the dual boot option with
> >XP on my system was a big mistake. I decided not to because I
> >figured I'd cling to XP and never get around to tackling the hassle of
a new OS.
> >And I was under the impression that addressing the audio issues was
> >a big part of SP1. Oh well. Live and learn.
> >
> >I haven't tried the X1 script because I didn't upgrade Sonar since
> >my studio was trashed. Even after spending a fortune to have a huge
> >amount of work done and having the contractors tell me that there
> >was absolutely no way in hell another drop of water could ever get
> >in I had water coming in about 3 weeks later; the first time we had
> >a heavy wind-driven rain after all the work was done. It's not
> >much, and it's actually manageable with a dehumidifier, but I've
> >come to just hate that space, odd as it sounds, after hauling all
> >my gear up and down for the last several years. Now I'm trying to
> >talk myself into selling most of the gear I have racked and stacked
> >and packed all
over the house.
> >Nothing like a bedroom closet full of drums and a sun room with 20
> >grand worth of gear boxed up and ready to ship. Groan.
> >
> >Yeah, I've been meaning to give NVDA a whirl myself. I just never
> >seem to get around to it. I battled with LightScribe discs a few
> >years ago and it was kind of a crap shoot whether I'd get what I
> >expected
or not.
> >But I imagine the program has changed and there are probably
> >different programs out there today. I'm glad it's working well for
> >you. And I'm glad the mackie is too. I'd be tempted if I had
> >anything I could do with it.
> >
> >I don't know much about Windows 8 other than that Doug and Ron have
> >been spending a lot of time at Microsoft for quite a while now
> >working on it through the development cycle. And according to them
> >Microsoft seems to actually be trying to make it much more
> >accessible right from the get-go. Of course they've kind of forced
> >their own hand on that front because Windows 8 will use direct 2D
> >rendering, which will in turn make every existing screen-reader
> >absolutely blind to
> >But the last time Doug returned from a week at Microsoft he was
> >very excited about the way in which they designed the hook for
> >screen-readers. So, knock on wood, we might actually finally have a
> >very fast and accurate hook into the operating system. And UIA
> >pretty much takes the accessibility issue out of lazy and/or
> >ignorant developers hands by incorporating MSAA like hooks into
> >everything, only better in that UIA will provide much more detailed
> >information about controls and windows. Of course I'm sure there
> >will be the usual growing pains. So only time will tell.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Tom
> >
> >On 11/9/2011 4:12 PM, Chris Belle wrote:
> >>Ah, a much missed voice.
> >>
> >>I need to call you soon, and just chew the fat.
> >>
> >>And i hope things are going ok on the beta team.
> >>
> >>I wrote gwmicro a private email voiceing my concerns about w7
> >>stability and they said they were working on it.
> >>
> >>And there are beginning scripts for x1 have you tried them yet?
> >>
> >>I hope that keeps on being developed.
> >>
> >>I'm still using xp just because it works so well on everything old
> >>and new, and only venture in to w7 for my students who need help
> >>
> >>I haven't trusted any of my projects to w7 yet though.
> >>
> >>the ocr on jaws 13 is bitchin',
> >>and nvda that free little reader is really cool, it'll read things
> >>the bog boys won't touch.
> >>
> >>I've been using it for my lightscribe labels and such, I can
> >>actually do some simple printing for people now without help,
> >>we've gota dedicated machine in the front room for folks who want
> >>to play lightscribe artists 'grin'.
> >>
> >>Rest assured, our faith and praises are always weelcome on this list.
> >>
> >>YOu know, I compromised and didn't go with a control surface and
> >>got the mackie onyx 1640i a true analog board but with firewire
> >>sends and returns on each channel, man what a sweet board.
> >>
> >>Real analog goodness and the convenience of digital.
> >>
> >>Couldn't ask for anything better, except maybe a footswitch for my
> >>talk back, but i use the talkback on my headphone amp anyway, but
> >>man, is it easy to caress a sound 90 percent of the way there in a
> >>hurry and still have the ability to automate or do extra whatever
> >>in he
box too.
> >>
> >>And absolutely no menus, what little control pannel there is is
> >>very accessible for setting asio buffer size and such.
> >>
> >>hey, since
> >>the bios is going away finally with windows heading toward w8, i
> >>wonder if we'll get talking installs like the mac has?
> >>
> >>I hope the flooding hasn't rered it's ugly head again at your house.
> >>
> >>We had to jack hammer the whole basement and put in new poop pipe,
> >>and we put in a back flow valve so hopefully this time is things
> >>back up with the city, we won't get a lot in the basement.
> >>
> >>Yuck.
> >>
> >>And we had to put a new roof on this year too.
> >>
> >>Always something, but god's been good and we've even managed to
> >>double up some payments on the principal on the loan, so we're
> >>gonna get this off our backs as quick as possible.
> >>
> >>Sonar 8.5 3 is still the sweet spot.
> >>
> >>I haven't made any real significant progress as a baby programmer
> >>'grin', but the little skills I do have sure help to quickly whip
> >>up a macro to hit a button or so on a synth or what ever.
> >>
> >>Speaking from your great knowledge as a programmer, how easy would
> >>it be to integrat ocr with wineyes?
> >>
> >>It's amazing, I tried it with a familiar plug and it showed up
> >>everything, the menu states, even stuff that hotspot clicker
> >>wouldn't do, I think every screen-reader aught to have this feature?
> >>
> >>Ocr that sun of a gun and then present it so you can click on
> >>whateer and even with window-eyes very flaky w7 behavior, it still
> >>beats jaws for exploration with the mouse feaures.
> >>
> >>Atleast without jumping through a bunch of hoops.
> >>
> >>And it's weird because stuff that talks in xp doesn't talk in w7
> >>and narrator even in w7 will rad stuff window-eyes won't.
> >>
> >>I guess it's those different video driver modes, dcm versus mirror
> >>versus ui.
> >>
> >>I just know enough about that stuff to be very dangerous.
> >>
> >>Well, off to la la land, they gave me morphine a plenty and stuck
> >>needles in my head and neck today and i think about 12 hours of
> >>sleep are called for.
> >>
> >>
> >>At 03:29 AM 11/9/2011, you wrote:
> >>>Hey Chris,
> >>>
> >>>Good to hear from you. I've been out of touch for too long.
> >>>
> >>>I'm glad to hear so much is going well with your studio,
> >>>students, your own music, and still having the drive to take up new
> >>>It all sounds wonderful. And I can't wait to hear your new album.
> >>>I wish you the best of luck with everything.
> >>>
> >>>And regarding Stephie's and your health concerns? You know my
> >>>prayers are with the both of you. I don't mean to insinuate
> >>>spiritual bribery, mind you, but I'll toss my two extra sense
> >>>worth in with our loving Lord. grin.
> >>>
> >>>Wishing the two of you the love and joy of each other, your
> >>>faith, and your music. And I'm thanking God that I can write this
> >>>without being crusified; pun intended.
> >>>
> >>>God speed,
> >>>Tom
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On 11/9/2011 1:20 AM, Chris Belle wrote:
> >>>>haven't posted here for a while, trying to be a good citizen and
> >>>>help the most folks by staying on the mag, but what with several
> >>>>album projects going right now, my wife and I both having
> >>>>medical procedures, and my load of students, I've decided to get
> >>>>off midimag and stay off for a while.
> >>>>
> >>>>So Tom, Sandy, Ramy, I haven't even checked who all is here,
> >>>>Meagan, Omar, Ross, Roy, I'll be putting a little more energy
> >>>>here, and of course the folks that seem to take great delight in
> >>>>throwing rocks at me aren't here.
> >>>>
> >>>>yeh i know, do I want some cheese with that wine.
> >>>>
> >>>>But maybe it's time to buckle down even more and get some work > >>>>done.
> >>>>
> >>>>We've got our own album which just lacks a few songs being done,
> >>>>but I've had the pleasure of working on some wonderful albums
> >>>>this year, like our good friend Gudrun, what a treat, I wish we
> >>>>could all go back and live in the 1300s but take modern plumbing
> >>>>and our recording machines with us 'grin'.
> >>>>
> >>>>Stephie is learning flute, and I'm learning mandolin nd used it
> >>>>on my first track last week.
> >>>>
> >>>>We bought some new instruments, treated ourselves to a flute, a
> >>>>mandolin and a cat gutt guitar 'grin'.
> >>>>
> >>>>there's just so certain times you need some cat gutts in your > >>>>music.
> >>>>
> >>>>and Nothing else will do.
> >>>>
> >>>>I've been playing with reason, and our good friend and giant
> >>>>brained roy is 3 jumps ahead of me as usual 'grin'.
> >>>>
> >>>>Reason has a lot of promise, even for us more traditional
> >>>>instrumentalists, and it can be made to work with sonar quite
> >>>>nicely through rewire.
> >>>>
> >>>>We've just got to figure out how to activate the rewire extra
> >>>>channels, I've been cheating by dumping down tracks and
> >>>>re-inserting the same synth.
> >>>>
> >>>>But there's a little something for everyone there, and in the
> >>>>demo you can't save your songs but that doesn't matter if you
> >>>>use it with
> >>>>
> >>>>Things tend to work best with xp of course, and or 32 bit w7
> >>>>next in line, and all the issues so far are always with w7 64
> >>>>bit since it's still green in the conservative studio
> >>>>environment where we're always the last to upgrade, I tend to
> >>>>use lots of older plug-ins that are just great and why loose
> >>>>great tools as long as these fast machines will run them.
> >>>>
> >>>>But time does march on, and fixes will hapen eventually.
> >>>>
> >>>>Ok, off to bed for me, just thought I'd pop my head in here.
> >>>>
> >>>>And update everybody,
> >>>>
> >>>>So the few of you here that are on the mag either write me here
> >>>>or privately.
> >>>>
> >>>>Blessings everybody.
> >>>>
> >>>>Chris and Stephie Belle.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>For all your audio production needs and technology training,
> >>>>visit us at
> >>>>
> >>>>www.affordablestudioservices.com
> >>>>or contact
> >>>>Chris Belle
> >>>>cb1963@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>or
> >>>>Stephie Belle
> >>>>stephieb1961@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>for customized web design
> >>>>
> >>
> >>For all your audio production needs and technology training, visit
> >>us at
> >>
> >>www.affordablestudioservices.com
> >>or contact
> >>Chris Belle
> >>cb1963@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>or
> >>Stephie Belle
> >>stephieb1961@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>for customized web design
> >>
> >>
>For all your audio production needs and technology training, visit us
>or contact
>Chris Belle
>Stephie Belle
>for customized web design

For all your audio production needs and technology training, visit us

or contact
Chris Belle
Stephie Belle
for customized web design

For all your audio production needs and technology training, visit us at

or contact
Chris Belle
Stephie Belle
for customized web design

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