(I didn't see this come back on the list, so...) I had time (and energy) for some more practice on the python. my recommendations to other noobs: 1. Have the seat as high as you can while able to touch ground, I actually found that I didn't start with my hands down, but it is helpful many times 2. Do not use a low pivot angle, at least at first. The biggest thing against me was the slow response of steer. When I had a 59deg. angle and lower seat I could _not_ learn to ride it. It seems acceptable at ~65 now. 3. Wear gloves. No need for a helmet, your hands, elbows and knees will always hit first. 4. Find a wide space. I crashed and stopped pointlessly, and often, in the street. I even considered training wheels <gasp>. But, I moved to a set of tennis courts nearby and was riding around them in 10 minutes. 5. I think my solid, stiff seat helps as it gives something stable to push against with the back to pedal and maneuver. 6. I use the under-seat handlebars I just welded on, a lot, - but many don't and Jurgen apparently has control issues with them. I try to learn legs-only as I can. (You know, I gives me the impression of riding my Trek no-hands while standing up with the top tube between my legs, Tricky, but do-able.) I removed the high bars in the one photo; although the motion is less contrary to the hip motion. With the low bars I definitely feel pushing on the right hinders my hips swinging right when turning left. 7. Starting took me more practice than maneuvering once going. I start by holding the brake, both hands on the bars, setting one pedal towards me and one good push to start. I need to get up 8+km/h to feel steady. The most important thing is starting very nearly upright and straight. A few quick adjustments until you get up more speed might be all you need. Again, because of the pivot angle I sometimes find the need to swing the wheel wildly if I don't start well; this is where the bars help I think, as the feet are not yet cycling quickly and the need to get the bike back under me quickly is large. Going downhill I keep the rear (the only) brake dragging, it feels more stable and prevents disasters. I have the chain set on the middle 36 ring and the middle 22 cog. I'll add shifters next week. A lower gear helps a lot too, it gets the feet moving around quicker. I find the same riding upright no-hands; it's easier to do while pedaling. 8. I look ahead about 10 meters; anything closer, it's too late anyway... I can just turn around (usually) in one-half of a tennis court. Staying upright with the CoG over the wheelbase is many times more finicky than my Trek. http://www.rjs.org/gallery/ptgorge3.jpg The pencil vs. broomstick balancing analogy is apt, and looking ahead vs. at the front wheel really make a difference at this point. I wonder about the wheelbase - mine could be about 16cm shorter and so have a tighter turn radius, but then the rear-steer would also be that much larger, making it harder to get the bike back under the CoG. Has anyone tested the effect of just shortening wheelbase? A few more evenings and I'll feel confident enough to ride around town some. Ray Schumacher La Jolla, CA (near San Diego) http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=11&X=296&Y=2270&W=1 http://rjs.org/gallery/python_1.jpg http://rjs.org/gallery/python_2.jpg http://rjs.org/gallery/pivot.jpg http://rjs.org also: http://rexranger.com ============================================================ This is the Python Mailinglist at freelists.org Listmaster: Juergen Mages jmages@xxxxxx ============================================================