[pure-silver] Re: Problems with KRST????
- From: "Tim Rudman" <tim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 08:30:02 +0100
" I didn't pay it any attention at the
time but now..... A clue???"
Not really. This is very strange. I have been toning with selenium for 30-40
years now and not yet had this experience, so you have been unlucky to say
the least! The only constant factor in all this seems to be the paper, but I
can't see how that is likely to be responsible. Have you asked
Kentmere/Ilford?
Both working strength and concentrate lasts for years. I have never seen it
go brown 'through oxidation in 6 months' - with any of the preparations on
the market, or homemade.
The black flakes are safe to ignore. They don't seem to harm the print and
you can easily filter them out or simply decant the clear toner as they are
heavy and sink to the bottom.
If you do solve this I would love to know the answer.
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:pure-silver-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bogdan Karasek
Sent: 05 April 2008 05:23
To: pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Problems with KRST????
Hi again,
I just noticed something. I was walking down the corridor in the house
and have a number of my photos hanging on the walls. And I noticed it.
All these prints on the wall had had the 1:9 Seleniumm treatment and
yet the white borders were white,; whereas the ones I toned this week
all had coffee stained borders. I didn't pay it any attention at the
time but now..... A clue???
Cheers,
bogdan
Bogdan Karasek wrote:
> Hi Richard,
>
> I'll try the different paper route, Ilford Fiber and Agfa MultiClassic
> but I find it strange that the previous poster has been using Kentmere
> with no ill effect, except that I don't know what KBT stands for ;)
>
> Cheers,
> Bogdan
>
> Richard Knoppow wrote:
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bogdan Karasek"
>> <bkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 8:37 PM
>> Subject: [pure-silver] Re: Problems with KRST????
>>
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Se below:
>>>
>>> Richard Knoppow wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bogdan Karasek"
>>>> <bkarasek@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 6:32 PM
>>>> Subject: [pure-silver] Problems with KRST????
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi again,
>>>>>
>>>>> I've run into some unexpected problems toning with KRST. I've been
>>>>> doing some tests and comparisons and wanted to check out the
>>>>> Kentmere papers. I got what we had in Montreal, "finegrain" and
>>>>> "warmtone", both semimatte VC papers in 8x10 size. I wanted to
>>>>> compare it's toning properties with Agfa MultiClassic. I had a
>>>>> half full bottle of KRST which has been on the shelf for close to a
>>>>> year. I diluted the selenium 1:9 in distilled water as is my
>>>>> habit. By the time I had the second sheet of Kentmere in the
>>>>> toner, the toner started turning brown and by the fifth sheet, the
>>>>> toner looked like liquid fudge; impossible to see the image in the
>>>>> tray.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had done the prerequisite washing, 5 min in Hypo Clear, then a 40
>>>>> min wash in running water, the selenium was mixed with distilled
>>>>> water, no other additives. I went to the photo store today to get
>>>>> a fresh bottle of KRST and asked the clerk about the phenomenon of
>>>>> the selenium going brown. he told me that if it had been sitting
>>>>> on the shelf for close to a year, half full, then it went bad. Is
>>>>> this a reasonable explanation, that the toner went bad, oxidation
>>>>> because only half full????
>>>>>
>>>>> With the fresh bottle of KRST and using some left over prints from
>>>>> yesterday, I proceeded to tone them, same protocol as before. By
>>>>> the second sheet, the selenium started getting a brown hue to it.
>>>>> I find this week's experience with KRST rather odd because I have
>>>>> never had it go brown on me, not especially with a fresh bottle of
>>>>> KRST.
>>>>> I'm trying to figure out what went wrong and nothing comes up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Several questions: what is the shelf life of KRST? ... I checked
>>>>> the Kodak web site but no information on that score.
>>>>> Is the Selenium dilution supposed to change color after only
>>>>> several sheets have been toned in it??? And turning brown???
>>>>>
>>>>> If anybody has any ideas, comments, questions or other
>>>>> observations, they are welcome. I sort of miffed and puzzled by
>>>>> this experience and would like to get to the bottom of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> bogdan
>>>>>
>>>> I've not had this particular problem. The main source of staining
>>>> with KRST is acid in the emulsion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The problem is that the solution itself turns brown and you can't see
>>> anything, liquid fudge! Leaves a brown stain in the white tray.
>>>
>>> This can cause a deposit of precipitated
>>>
>>>> elemental selenium all over the emulsion. A mild alkaline bath
>>>> before toning will prevent this. Unless your water is very acid the
>>>> treatment in KHCA before washing should also prevent it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I use distilled water so the water should be free of all contaminants!!!
>>>
>>>> I would be concerned with residue of something in the tray.
>>>> The only thing I've observed with old KRST is that some elemental
>>>> selenium will precipitate in the form of fine black flakes. AFAIK,
>>>> these do no harm although they probably reduce the capacity of the
>>>> toner a bit. I just filter the stuff out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I did wash the tray in household bleach between the first "liquid
>>> fudge" and the second "liquid fudge" but I rinsed very well, I hope,
>>> but then how to explain the first solution turning brown. No
>>> presence of bleach.
>>>
>>>> Have you tested the toner with some other kind of paper?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Next move. I still have some Agfa Multi classic and will try toning
>>> that with a fresh solution. Methinks that maybe there is something
>>> with the paper, Kentmere, but it was washed in Hypo Clear for 5
>>> minutes, 40 minute continuous wash.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the input. I'll follow recommendations and try again this
>>> week end with a diff paper. I'll post results.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Bogdan
>>>
>> A forty minute wash even without the wash aid should get rid of any
>> acid in the paper. It _could_ be something in the paper, trying other
>> paper is the only way to prove it. The cause of the sludge is beyond
>> my knowledge of chemistry.
>>
>> ---
>> Richard Knoppow
>> Los Angeles, CA, USA
>> dickburk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
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>
--
________________________________________________________________
Bogdan Karasek
Montréal, Québec bogdan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Canada www.bogdanphoto.com
"I bear witness"
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