have you guys ever played princess maker? On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:57 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > yeah we'll finish the intro scenarios first... i really think it will > provide the backbone for the rest of the game storywise and characterwise... > > > On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 8:21 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> Yeah that makes sense. >> >> I think we should figure it out before too long. >> >> I'm willing to wait til the intro scenarios are done though. We don't >> really need to know until then, but yeah maybe you guys will start figuring >> that stuff out sooner so we'll be ready by the time we are done w/ the >> scenarios? >> >> BTW i might be assuming too much but i'm assuming we'll finish the intro >> scenarios before moving on? Or at least do a couple of em so there is some >> semblance of real character creation? What were you thinkin Eric on that >> front? >> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >> >>> I guess we should start working on fleshing out the game progression >>> before we get too far ahead of ourselves. We could answer some more simple >>> questions first. >>> >>> I thought Eric mentioned something about having multiple worlds that >>> eventually meet up in the end. We should sort content by world, then by >>> areas of the world such as caves, towns, etc. I think art and everything >>> should be separated with more sub folders with in. >>> >>> I think I will start gathering all the information from the emails and >>> prepare them into whatever will be copied to the wikis. This way we will >>> have this information easily accessible. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>> >>>> Basically everyone breaks it into a tree of subfolders. What those >>>> subfolders are named / how the tree is laid out depends on the kind of >>>> game. >>>> >>>> Like if your game was level based, you could have a subfolder for each >>>> level and that'd be pretty much it. >>>> >>>> Also generally, assets aren't grouped all together, like you'll have an >>>> audio folder w/ the directory tree of audio, a folder for art w/ the >>>> directory tree of art etc. >>>> >>>> If you have a huge world, you might break it into a grid (or break it >>>> into continents first then grid). >>>> >>>> It's hard cause right now we don't know how the world will be laid out >>>> so it's hard to come up with a good plan. >>>> >>>> This thing is generaly more of a problem for art than anyone else, but >>>> in our game it'll be a problem w/ everything since we'll have so much >>>> content (scripts, art, audio, etc). >>>> >>>> I dunno the solution yet but we'll need to figure something out to make >>>> it organized in a simple way so we dont get burned :/ >>>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>> >>>>> What do other game developers do for file management? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> yeah basically if we are careful and avoid dangerous situations I >>>>>> think we can be ok. But yeah we are going to be walking the knife edge >>>>>> where we could easily fall into a situation where the game has so many >>>>>> bugs >>>>>> and they are all intertwined that fixing one breaks another one that we >>>>>> may >>>>>> just have to say "fuck it, we cant fix it" and give up. >>>>>> >>>>>> There's just certain things that are dangerous that can be helped w/ >>>>>> some forethought and good, consistant organization that i want to make >>>>>> sure >>>>>> we avoid, and if we start hitting issues we'll have to address them >>>>>> before >>>>>> they get out of hand. >>>>>> >>>>>> File organization is one of those such things! :P >>>>>> >>>>>> but yeah, the reputation / decision system is another. >>>>>> >>>>>> we'll have to be careful >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Kent Petersen >>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I assumed combat would be upgraded =) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Testing will get very complicated very quickly. We must make sure we >>>>>>> don't fall into similar problems that Fallout 1 and 2 had (never played >>>>>>> 3). >>>>>>> Those games had so many things going on that 3rd party people are still >>>>>>> releasing patches for those titles. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alan, I think you may be the only person with real experience here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We could deffinately keep a tally of how many times the player used >>>>>>>> each skill and then have that affect things. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The var storage system josh is making would be great for that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also whenever we do the gladiator sceario, there will be heavy >>>>>>>> improvements to the combat system if it hasn't been upgraded by that >>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>> already (: >>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I like the way these scenarios are fleshing out as well. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> How would you have the lineage scenario play out? Would it be more >>>>>>>>> like a dating sim? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> re: Gladiator scenario. I like the idea of it being and old >>>>>>>>> gladiators last battle. I like Alan's idea about combat being like the >>>>>>>>> beginning of FF3(6), where combat is easy and fdifficult to lose. >>>>>>>>> This way >>>>>>>>> the player will learn the basics of Combat, such as dodging. The >>>>>>>>> first few >>>>>>>>> rounds would be easy training but then it could start bringing out >>>>>>>>> the more >>>>>>>>> difficult combat challenges until the player ultimately wins something >>>>>>>>> (maybe his freedom like ancient rome) or loses and dies. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It would be cool if this part of the game kept track of your >>>>>>>>> fighting style. For example, it may know if you prefer to dodge, >>>>>>>>> supper >>>>>>>>> attack, or regular attack, and it would give you stats accordingly. >>>>>>>>> Maybe if >>>>>>>>> you dodge all the time you could get a bonus dodging move like a >>>>>>>>> counter >>>>>>>>> attack. If you super attacked all the time you could get a finishing >>>>>>>>> move >>>>>>>>> that leaves you defenseless if you don't finish them off. If we >>>>>>>>> wanted to >>>>>>>>> get really detailed you could even determine their turn reload time >>>>>>>>> by the >>>>>>>>> amount of time they spend on their turns. Maybe if you click through >>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>> turns real quick you can get a speed bonus but if you take your time >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> could receive an armor bonus. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would hope there would be an engaging story as well. Which is >>>>>>>>> definately more of Eric's expertise. What do you guys think? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 1:40 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> yeah totally, good ideas - i like the idea that ppl may regard you >>>>>>>>>> as famous or whatnot or maybe help you (or despise you) like that >>>>>>>>>> could work >>>>>>>>>> in conjuction with the faction stuff and charisma, having a noble >>>>>>>>>> upbringing >>>>>>>>>> so maybe you're a jerk and peasents hate you but you know courtly >>>>>>>>>> manners so >>>>>>>>>> royalty like you, etc. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> we'll flesh it out more when we work on that scenario >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> i really like the idea of having diverse scenarios with multiple >>>>>>>>>> solutions for character creation seems really fun to play through >>>>>>>>>> and make >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:37 PM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> that would be really cool eric, like it could affect what kind of >>>>>>>>>>> house you live in, your starting equipment, how people treat you >>>>>>>>>>> (ie are the >>>>>>>>>>> gaurds friendly cause your father was a famous knight? or do they >>>>>>>>>>> hate you >>>>>>>>>>> cause you are a begger and a thief trying to survive?) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 1:35 PM, Kent Petersen < >>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> That parent scenario sounds pretty cool. How would the lineage >>>>>>>>>>>> affect your character? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 1:32 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> yep yep :) this is awesome... see, and like, death in these >>>>>>>>>>>>> intros wouldnt necessarily be a "you lose" thing, it would just >>>>>>>>>>>>> be the >>>>>>>>>>>>> completetion of a story. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> something i was thinking also is we could have a scenario maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>> where you play your father (or mother) and the choice you make >>>>>>>>>>>>> (unbeknowst >>>>>>>>>>>>> to you until later...) would affect your lineage... like you make >>>>>>>>>>>>> the choice >>>>>>>>>>>>> and at the end it shows two people and a baby and they are like >>>>>>>>>>>>> "aww... lets >>>>>>>>>>>>> name it <your name>" so its revealed at the end of the scenario >>>>>>>>>>>>> it was your >>>>>>>>>>>>> parents, not just random ppl >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those are neat ideas. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Like yeah.... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let's say you play as a knight and you come across a gleaming >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sword saying its like a 1 use sword, waiting for the true hero >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to take it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have the gaul to take it for yourself, you end up dying >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the heart of undead land (like its unavoidable). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So... if you take it you get some kind of modifier to your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> character, but the sword is now kept in some undead lands, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> really hard >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to get to. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, if you leavbe it, it's more accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe you have to get this sword as part of a quest so it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would make that quest harder or easier :P >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 1:23 PM, eric drewes < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :) cool idea re: crashing the boat - i really think it'll be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun to balance it out so you really "can't lose" in the intro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scenarios, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balance it in non-linear ways like you mentioned. for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instance, if you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crashed the boat right away, you would lose out on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oppurtunity to gain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure hunting, trap evading, action skills BUT its balanced >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out by being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to find maybe a unique treasure later in the game off of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the explorer's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> corpse next to his crashed boat. we definitely don't have to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balance apples >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to apples :) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Kent Petersen < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cool Eric. I am on the same page with you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If adventure, stealing, having dexterity an being nimble is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what the scenario is about then losing it should give you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opposite bonuses. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps if you fight with the natives you will get more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strength and or life >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bonuses. There could even be an extra powerful bonus that you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may get for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> losing immediately. Maybe you crash the boat never make it to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the natives >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and your player character will be able to raid the boat in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> future. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it'll be cool when we are done from the cave, we can all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talk about which mission we want to do and start fleshing it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storyboard it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's gunnna be awesome! (: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 12:08 PM, eric drewes < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yeah i don't have a detailed storyboard or anything for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this one but i do have some things in mind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) if you died anywhere in the scenario, that would be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "the end" of the scenario - basically keeping you from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting treasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hunting bonuses that come with surviving the scenario but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balanced with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other bonuses instead... we dont really want to make it so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to keep >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "rerolling" your character and i like the idea of learning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from mistakes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they made so they dont feel like they have to be perfect all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) persuasion of the natives could come in the form of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe finding an item (an idol or something) in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exploration part before >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you stumble upon them that allows dialogue options, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatnot.. or maybe if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you find the cave BEFORE you find the natives, you get the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure from the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cave and when you exit you present it to them and they make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you king or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something. we'll have to work this out one. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) there'll definitely be a lot of different bonuses, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for actions during the scenario - win or lose. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) i basically envision the traps from indiana jones and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the like... maybe you step on the wrong tiles and darts fire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at you, maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theres cielings that collapse and you have to find the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trigger to stop it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from crushing you, maybe failing at doing a puzzle will set >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off a trap, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. combat also may set it off, and maybe you have to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fight some sort of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> automaton incan guardbot ha... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) i totally had the same thought as you on this... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regardless with what happens to the explorer, he' could show >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up later >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (either you find him on the other side, or maybe hes trapped >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the cave >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from a trap or the natives have captured him or else yeah, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he's chillin in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jailbreak area. also if you fail as the explorer to get the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure would be there in the main game and maybe its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed as a story >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> item so if its gone you have to find the explorer, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Kent Petersen < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What happens if you die? Would you lose points to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure hunting and fighting? How would that impact the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> story? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would one persuade the natives to help? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would there be only one treasure to get or would there be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lesser treasures for lesser bonuses? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What kind of stuff would the traps trigger? Combat or? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Random thought: If a character dies in one the the games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intro scenarios we could always re-use that character when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we include the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jail breaking scenarios to rescue teammates. Perhaps your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure hunting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> character dies but your player character could meet the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure hunter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> later when trying to rescue one of your team mates. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 11:47 AM, eric drewes < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just adding a couple more basic intro scenario ideas i >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had to see what you guys thought (and if you guys have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any, please feel free >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to share!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. The Explorer - this scenario is inspired by the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> death of Magellen at the hands of natives in the battle of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mactan as well as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the scene in "The Fountain" in the beginning where Ponce >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> de Leon is fighting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through the aztecs trying to reach the fountain of youth. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I love the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> classic explorer and native stuff (also indiana jones...) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and think an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> awesome scenario would be an explorer landing his boat at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the edge of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> river and exploring a little jungle area and getting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attacked by natives. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's how I see it playing out, you actively control a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> boat down a river until you read a dead end of sorts (like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe you go over >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a water fall or hit some rocks), you get out and explore a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little jungle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> area (maybe a couple wild animal enemies) and stumble upon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a small native >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> camp. They attack forcing the character to flee (as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little cut scenes as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible, id like to lead the character where we want them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but leave the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> active control in their hands) and he enters a small cave >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is a shrine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the natives (the natives stop outside the shrine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because its a sacred >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> area) - once inside its an indiana jones-esque collection >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of puzzles and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dangers ultimately leading (assuming you survive!) to some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort of treasure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and an exit to safety. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effects of this scenario would be adding to things like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treasure hunting/avarice, possibly helping charisma (maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> friends with the natives rather than fight them) some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combat-ish stuff, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> obviously a lot of action stuff like survivng traps and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figuring out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> puzzles, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >