[project1dev] Re: first things first

  • From: Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 11:17:43 -0700

oh good idea, that sounds good.

i'll pick up a wired controller


On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:07 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> oh one more thing - i dont think i talked about this...
>
> i am a console gamer at heart and would love if we could port this over to
> xbox live arcade someday.  I like playing games with a controller and prefer
> it to mouse and keyboard mostly.  i actually think we should design the game
> from the bottom up w/ dual controls in mind (mouse/keyboard and gamepad) and
> support gamepads asap... the wired 360 controller plugs right into the
> computer  :)
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Eric. Those were the kind of answers I was looking for
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:15 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> you know, it's funny but your "no elves at the north pole comment"
>>>
>>> it makes me want to make a game (not this one) where santa (he might not
>>> actually be santa, he could just be a human toy maker / machinist kind of
>>> guy) and the elves live in a camp on the pole, on the frozen tundra in the
>>> woods, in the land of perpetual night, and there is some dark king type guy
>>> who lives near and is trying to bring evil onto the world or something (like
>>> picture the guy from legend.. damn i love that movie).
>>>
>>> The atmosphere would be relaly dark and epic and surreal hehe
>>>
>>> maybe it'd just be another area in the candy land game
>>>
>>> I really wanna see the peppermint woodsmen chop down some gremlins w/ his
>>> candy axe haha (and then maybe he gets overwhelmed)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 10:05 AM, <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> good questions kent...
>>>>
>>>> i think the size will really be dictated by the amount of work/effort it
>>>> takes to get the character creation and first "world" done. If it is easy 
>>>> to
>>>> create and populate the world, we'll make it bigger, if it is hard - we 
>>>> will
>>>> go for quality over quantity and focus on doing the best we can w/ what we
>>>> have. What you envision is in line w/ my thoughts though, re: NPC's being
>>>> unique and having a purpose rather than just being fodder.
>>>>
>>>> Physical land, i would say we will have to play w/ it. I think this is
>>>> another answer that will be best reconciled via in game trial ... its hard
>>>> to say without knowing how the game "feels" - it could be that smaller 
>>>> areas
>>>> with dense content may feel like more than enough, or maybe we'll feel like
>>>> we need large rolling landscapes to invoke the proper atmosphere.
>>>>
>>>> I would imagine 1 or 2 small towns per world, and then new towns and
>>>> combinations, changes, etc when the worlds are smooshed together. My less 
>>>> is
>>>> more comment was more in reference to quality over quantity and also - when
>>>> we design things, we should try not to duplicate thing too much, i.e. one
>>>> magic wishing well is unique and adds flavor, make a ton of them though and
>>>> they lose their value.
>>>>
>>>> I know these are sort of vague answers - re: how big the world is, but
>>>> its hard to say really without knowing how the game will feel. hopefully
>>>> this first map will give us the information we need and we can design and
>>>> proceed accordingly.
>>>>
>>>> as far as mythology goes... my only BIG thing is i really really really
>>>> really (x1000) want to avoid modern fantasy cliche's like orcs, elves, etc.
>>>> i feel like tolkien has been tapped one too many times - but there are
>>>> plenty of other sources for inspiration that we can draw from that can
>>>> provide a lot of cool stuff for us. I like greek mythology, arabic
>>>> mythology, norse mythology, etc. alice in wonderland, steampunk stuff,
>>>> conan, fafhrd and the grey mouser, peterpan, old folklore like grimms
>>>> fairytales, native american legends, tall tales (John Henry FTW) etc
>>>>
>>>> one thing is i would say we can have A minotaur, but not a minotaur race
>>>> - we want to make a clean distinction between us and WoW :P plus, back on
>>>> the theme... a minotaur is unique, a race of them loses the mystique. In
>>>> fact, i would say that about everything fantastical - an elf is fine, a 
>>>> race
>>>> of elves is fairyland at the northpole w/ legolas - ha ha. seriously, i
>>>> fucking hate elfs. anyways, i would say it like this ... if we create our
>>>> own race of creatures, or the race in inspired by either an obscure source
>>>> OR an ancient myth, we can have MANY of them - im cool w/ goatmen, 
>>>> centaurs,
>>>> mermaids, mushroom men, as RACES. but if we are going to use something
>>>> derivative (like something tolkien, WoW, harry potter or other major modern
>>>> fantasy things) we should limit it to 1. Maybe my brain is broken but even
>>>> though I HATE ELFS - i think one elf sounds kinda cool, like mysterious,
>>>> where did it come from? why is it here? what is it doing? Wow and to
>>>> contradict myself, i think dwarves are ok too or a dwarf is neat
>>>> too...mythological races will be a case by case thing, maybe, and as we get
>>>> deeper in the mythology of the game will be further developed and things
>>>> like this might be answered along the way. I hope this is making some sort
>>>> of sense...
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 8, 2009 12:31pm, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> > I would say design it with porting in mind. Everything that uses the
>>>> mouse interface should be able to have an analog stick representation. We
>>>> would also need to keep controls to a maximum of the number of buttons on 
>>>> an
>>>> XBox controller.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > How long will the game take to finish if one was not exploring every
>>>> detail?
>>>> >
>>>> > How large of a game will this be? How many NPCs will wander the world?
>>>> Will there be 100s? 1000s? 10000s? From the description you have given I
>>>> envision a "smaller" game with 100s of NPCs (or less) each NPC unique with
>>>> something important to provide to the player. How about physical land 
>>>> space?
>>>> Will it include many towns or fewer? Just one in each land? I guess what 
>>>> I'm
>>>> really asking is when you say less is more, how much detail do you want and
>>>> how large of a game will it be?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > If we are creating our own lore, we should have some basic monsters in
>>>> mind. What kind of Mythological creatues would you like to have? Like
>>>> Centaurs and Minotaurs or something new we make? Maybe a half otter half 
>>>> man
>>>> sea creature. Something different entirely?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 5:40 AM, eric drewes figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > yeah man, definitely like the telekenisis idea and it is in line w/
>>>> what i had in mind.  I pictured a glowing hand that's range was defined by
>>>> your willpower/skill and could activate switches, grab items, etc.  but i
>>>> really like the potential for physics and stuff.  It could be balanced also
>>>> because i was planning on having items in the game like a whip (or 
>>>> hookshot,
>>>> etc). well i will address this in the items/eq post but yeah :)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 8:29 AM, Chris Riccobono crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > This is an awesome foundation document.  Good job writing this up,
>>>> Eric.  :)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > There's so many things to build off of in here.  I really like the
>>>> >
>>>> > telekinesis archetype.. it's a good way to include magic in the game
>>>> >
>>>> > in a unique way.  It'll also be great for storytelling purposes!  As
>>>> >
>>>> > for the control thing, we should definitely think about analog sticks
>>>> >
>>>> > for later on (which can easily be done with the mouse on the pc)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Legend of Mana on the ps2 had a great system that let you change the
>>>> >
>>>> > psychics of things after you grabbed them with a whip by using the
>>>> >
>>>> > analog stick.  We could create a skill implementation of that with
>>>> >
>>>> > telekinesis, where you can grab objects and manipulate them in the
>>>> >
>>>> > world using the mouse.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Messing with the speed of the movement gave a great sense of gravity
>>>> >
>>>> > too, so you felt like you were actually throwing something around.
>>>> >
>>>> > Using randomness here helps too.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:26 PM,  figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Game objective: to provide an amazing experience to gamers by fusing
>>>> action adventure elements and traditional rpg gameplay - with the extra
>>>> twist that only WE can provide.
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Theme: the overall theme of the game is a new mythology.  I picture
>>>> more like greek myths, old folklore, etc rather than modern fantasy like
>>>> lord of the rings.  It is really important we establish our own creatures,
>>>> stories, myths, monsters etc.  Obviously we can be inspired by things we
>>>> think are great (zelda, oldschool ff's, modern rpg's) but we want it to be
>>>> in the universe we define and design.  In my head, the characters, npc's,
>>>> etc. are mostly real down to earth ppl with real problems, but they live in
>>>> subtly surreal world with all sorts of wonders and dangers that don't exist
>>>> irl.  I think a major key here is to remember-less is more.  If you have 
>>>> one
>>>> magician, he's unique and interesting, if you have 100 (like harry potter)
>>>> magic becomes common place and loses its *ahem* magic. If we want stuff to
>>>> have an impact, it is smart to keep it's mystery and rareness. Supply and
>>>> demand, etc. You all took economics.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Setting: this game is set in a yet unnamed world. In the beginning,
>>>> there are the pocket "worlds" - each representing its own self contained
>>>> little world of various size, including town/towns, landscape settings, 
>>>> etc.
>>>>  A world might be an island or a dessert world.  These worlds are connected
>>>> by doors  that progress forward towards an unknown 'final world' in a 
>>>> linear
>>>> fashion.  there are two doors hidden in each world - one forward to the 
>>>> next
>>>> world and one back towards the beginning.  When NPC's go through the doors
>>>> they turn into crazed demonic creatures called karzi.  For an unknown
>>>> reason, the main character can freely transverse through the doors - the
>>>> first half of the game will mostly involve the quest forward to the final
>>>> world.  The second half of the game is after the main character reaches the
>>>> final world, something happens that causes the borders between the worlds 
>>>> to
>>>> crumble creating one large interconnected worlds made up of the lands that
>>>> the character went through and some he didn't.  While to the character it
>>>> was only mere moments between the event in the final world and his arrival
>>>> in the new one, it is 10 years later in the now combined world.  New 
>>>> empires
>>>> have formed, aliances made, and new adventures to be had.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Character skill/stats:
>>>> >
>>>> > > The stat system is going to be deep and interconnected with other
>>>> systems and stats in the game.  Things like speed will affect both 
>>>> overworld
>>>> movement and combat speed.  Besides the standard stats like strength,
>>>> quickness, speed, constition, etc. there will also be auxillary stats
>>>> involving the character's will power. These stats are aggression and
>>>> discipline - these stats affect things like going berserk, getting scared,
>>>> etc. which will have influences on combat.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Stats:
>>>> >
>>>> > > Strength: influences damage, lifting ability, critical hits.
>>>> >
>>>> > > Quickness: influences dodging, rt, speed running
>>>> >
>>>> > > Constitution: affects HP, stamina, lifting ability
>>>> >
>>>> > > Will: influences discipline/agression system, magic abilty
>>>> >
>>>> > > Charisma: influences ppl's reaction towards you, ability to recruit,
>>>> some magic, also influences faction stuff. (Maybe there's order charisma 
>>>> and
>>>> chaos charisma and some ppl are attracted to either or neutrality)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Perception: influences dodging, also makes things like traps, secret
>>>> doors, hidden treasure, etc glow.
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Skill intro:
>>>> >
>>>> > > There are basic skills, master skills, and perks. Basic skills are
>>>> the skills everyone has.. Things like parrying, swinging a weapon, dodging,
>>>> swimming, jumping, etc (all affected by stats) and then there are master
>>>> skills which basically is how classes are defined.  Master skills are 
>>>> skills
>>>> that "level up" and give bonus perks and abilities in combat.  An example 
>>>> of
>>>> this would be like final fantasy skills like swordtech for cyan or blitz 
>>>> for
>>>> saban.  Another example of a master skill is magic. Perks are things that
>>>> can affect overworld or combat, like a quickdraw perk that gives you first
>>>> strike more often, lockpicking, an ability to sense if certain
>>>> creatures/characters have magic ability... There can be a ton.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Ahhh magic:
>>>> >
>>>> > > Yes there will be magic.  It will not be like magic in normal games.
>>>> Magic. in this game is all about imposing your will on the world around 
>>>> you.
>>>>  Instead of using the elements, etc. Magic will be used to do telekenisis,
>>>> mind control, mentally destroying the enemies, and bend physical reality
>>>> etc. Now that's not to say we can't have crazy bad ass spells, as mages can
>>>> warp reality and the world around them using the power of their will...
>>>> Causing rock spikes to burst from a boulder, etc. Also telekenisis can be
>>>> used in the overworld, its range and strength varying on will power and
>>>> magic skill. Perhaps further power in magic would allow time manipulation,
>>>> etc.  Very very few ppl in the world can use magic, and it is secretive and
>>>> looked at as evil.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Movement in the world:
>>>> >
>>>> > > The main character can run, jump, climb, etc.  Exploring is going to
>>>> be an adventure, with things like ropes to swing across, places to jump,
>>>> things to dodge, etc.  I am picturing indiana jones type of things with
>>>> giant boulders, darts shooting from the wlals, spike rooms, places to swim,
>>>> etc. Just a lot of cool actiony things to challenge the gamer.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Combat:
>>>> >
>>>> > > Combat is initiated by bumping into or being ambushed by an enemy.
>>>>  It will change screens to a combat screen like a traditional rpg but it
>>>> will not be standard turn based action once in.  What it will be is
>>>> something I have termed the "slip strike" system.  Basically combat will be
>>>> like a bizarre chimera of mike tyson's punchout, gemstone and final 
>>>> fantasy.
>>>>  Basically you control your character by selecting a command and then
>>>> deciding when to execute it - while waiting you will actively control a
>>>> block/parry/dodge defense and when you see an opening you'd execute.  I can
>>>> see this system being awesome, but perhaps overwelming. Maybe the beginning
>>>> will be standard atb combat and only at the end is this... We'll have to
>>>> play with it and find what is fun.  Status effects like being maimed, etc
>>>> will affect dodging and can either be made via critical hits or damage
>>>> inflicted by overworld obstacles/etc.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Important notes, re: combat -
>>>> >
>>>> > > To grind or not to grind, that is the question... Basically, there
>>>> are going to be two kinds of areas in this game, explore areas and grind
>>>> areas, now grind areas can have adventuring and explore areas can have
>>>> combat and enemies, but we want to keep in mind the theme of the area.
>>>>  Basically it is my belief that every battle should be dangerous and
>>>> challenging and pose an actual threat to the player. Rather than make the
>>>> game a war of attrition as the main character plows through an endless 
>>>> horde
>>>> of weak enemies, all the fights in an adventure area should be meaningful.
>>>>  Less enemies, more epic fights basically.  There will, of course, be grind
>>>> areas too where you can do battle for the hell of it.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Party member:
>>>> >
>>>> > > Two quick things here... This is subject to change depending on how
>>>> the combat system plays out but basically you'd either control your group
>>>> actively like ff or dq or issue them general commands.  This will need
>>>> tweaking once we get in.  The other aspect of party members that is
>>>> important is this... I want death to be meaningful - losing a party member
>>>> is easy to ignore if you can just ressurect them in battle or right
>>>> afterwards, there is no concequence.  My solution is this: if a party 
>>>> member
>>>> dies, they go to a node and you have to go to the node to jail break them
>>>> out and have them rejoin your party.  We could have these nodes in various
>>>> places and it could add an element to gameplay.  Obviously, this will need
>>>> to be balanced out, etc.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Character creation, the first level:
>>>> >
>>>> > > Basically you pick your face and general looks and the screen fades
>>>> and your character appears in a black void.  An NPC (character in 
>>>> hat/cloak)
>>>> explains that its time to test you and you are put through (I like 3
>>>> randomly ordered with a secret 4th one that pops up occasionally and maybe
>>>> imbues special powers or only 4th test ppl can learn magic). How the player
>>>> plays out the tests gives them a general starting point for their stats,
>>>> skills and perks.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > THE TRIALS:
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Test 1 - cave - you are shoved through a door, tumble down 1000
>>>> steps and arrive at the foot of a cave.  The cave has treasure and a 
>>>> warning
>>>> not to touch it. There will be various ways through the cave (like going
>>>> through a trapped tunnel, dodging the traps gives appropriate bonuses, also
>>>> just being a crazy mofo and walking through does too. There is no way to
>>>> lose - its a test of character). I also like barriers you could smash down
>>>> or try to pick. Also I think there could be an avarice/generousity system
>>>> which would balance by ppl liking you or finding more loot.  At the end of
>>>> the cave there is a door leading to the next quest. There is a lot of neat
>>>> stuff we could do here.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Test 2 - you come out the door and are on a ship.  The ship is a
>>>> warship.  You make choices depending on information you find by talking to
>>>> crew members, items you find, and talking to the prisoners.  The outcomes
>>>> could be things like... You free the prisoners, there's a mutiny, you 
>>>> escape
>>>> via lifeboat, you join the crew of the warship.  We can flesh this out but
>>>> what I have in mind is that there's conflicting stories which makes the
>>>> outcome seem morally ambiguous and maybe the best solution is only revealed
>>>> if you're super perceptive and find the right clue.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Test 3 - the tower - the tower is basically a spiral tower upwards
>>>> with traps, monsters and treasure but no real storyline.  This will just
>>>> help flesh out the character stats.
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Remember, these tests are random so no specific order...
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Test 4 - you go through a door and end up in the cloaked man's room.
>>>> He asks how you got there, you answer some questions and he decides whether
>>>> to teach you magic and maybe what kind (physical magic that helps enhance
>>>> physical skills ... Maybe an example would be double jump or jedi like
>>>> stuff, mental magic which was discussed above, or a hybrid) magic probably
>>>> comes at a prohibitive cost so that it balances w/ non magic players (I.e.
>>>> The path of magic is harder but had awesome rewards ... It isn't for
>>>> everyone). Maybe the cloaked man asks you what you sacrifice from a list we
>>>> can develop. Afterwards, he pushes you out the door and end up in either 
>>>> one
>>>> of the untaken tests or the exit .
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > The first world: we'll need a town and storyline for this, and
>>>> include the cave we are making now... The rest of the storya nd 
>>>> environments
>>>> need to be developed but I figure by the time we get to the first town,
>>>> we'll be rolling along pretty good.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > This is basically just an overview... Obviously many things need to
>>>> be fleshed out, decided, tested, perfected...but I figure this would give a
>>>> nice starting platform to work off of.
>>>> >
>>>> > > Things like the mechanics of skills, stats and the perk system will
>>>> need to be laid out in more detail but I think this is a nice start.
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Thanks,
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Eric
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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