[project1dev] Re: combat musings - injuries, status, partylist, matchups and tagteaming

  • From: Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:25:10 -0700

for #1, I see Eric's idea of lowered max life being implemented. The lowered
max life would be all they get until they receive proper healing.

#2 sounds good

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> if that does make sense maybe we should tweak it so that...
>
> #1 - when a person in your party dies they disapear.  Whenever you come to
> a spirit node, it will contain all your fallen team members, you can "pick
> them up" but maybe they are still injured.
>
> #2 - when everyone dies, it loads your last save game - and whenever you
> are near a spirit node, it auto saves
> hows that?
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> oh i see...
>>
>> Eric will correct me if i'm wrong but as i see it...
>>
>> #1 - when a person in your party dies, they teleport back to the last
>> spirit node.  You have to go back to pick them up if you want them again
>>
>> #2 - when everyone dies, it loads your last save game - and whenever you
>> are near a spirit node, it auto saves
>>
>> so spirit nodes are kind of like checkpoints
>>
>> does that make sense? (im not sure if it does haha)
>>   On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>
>>> I thought we were looking for a different death system to avoid monotony
>>> and repetition. Since we are settling on the classic start over system, how
>>> will we avoid monotony and repetition?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> what do you mean kent?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Will prevention for repetition (such as repeating levels) be in dungeon
>>>>> / character / enemy design with a lot of fine balance as opposed to 
>>>>> altering
>>>>> the concepts of how losing works?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought the experience giving you tickets thing was seperate from
>>>>>> the dying thing, but the rest sounds right as far as i understand it yeah
>>>>>>   On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Kent Petersen 
>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alan: I agree that the death scenario should not be for every time
>>>>>>> but for a few times that make sense for an extra bonus.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What did we settle on for saving and dieing? Game autosaves when you
>>>>>>> hit a savepoint and when you die you return to your save point with
>>>>>>> everything reset. Any experience earned turns into some kind of bonus 
>>>>>>> point
>>>>>>> that can be spent on games?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Matthew Morgan <MMorgan@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Gotcha!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *From:* project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>>>>>>>> project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:34 AM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *To:* project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [project1dev] Re: combat musings - injuries, status,
>>>>>>>> partylist, matchups and tagteaming
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From the tech side, no reason why we can't do both (:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not sure what the plan is though
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Matthew Morgan <
>>>>>>>> MMorgan@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have a q, are the minigames in all the towns, or is it wandering
>>>>>>>> vendors (like the guys in fallout who sell stuff?).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *From:* project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>>>>>>>> project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:25 AM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *To:* project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [project1dev] Re: combat musings - injuries, status,
>>>>>>>> partylist, matchups and tagteaming
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ok we can just do a straight up load last save game on death, and
>>>>>>>> have spirit nodes do autosaves.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> easier to program so im all for it! (:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yeah your ticket idea sounds good to me
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:20 AM, <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Alan, I think maybe the character doesn't keep exp... Ppl could
>>>>>>>> exploit that by killing some high exp boss, die and repeat... I was 
>>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>>> that thing where it keeps track of your total player earned exp and can
>>>>>>>> trade it to get minigame tickets - did you not like that idea?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *From*: Matthew Morgan
>>>>>>>> *Date*: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:02:02 -0700
>>>>>>>> *To*: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Subject*: [project1dev] Re: combat musings - injuries, status,
>>>>>>>> party list, matchups and tagteaming
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That makes perfect sense, the only thing you get to keep is exp, so
>>>>>>>> that would just overwrite after every battle, and everything else 
>>>>>>>> would get
>>>>>>>> saved only if in a node?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *From:* project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>>>>>>>> project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]*On Behalf Of *Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:01 AM
>>>>>>>> *To:* project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [project1dev] Re: combat musings - injuries, status,
>>>>>>>> party list, matchups and tagteaming
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ok so when you die it does a load of the save it made when you were
>>>>>>>> at the last node (or your last save game if you havent hit a node 
>>>>>>>> yet?) and
>>>>>>>> resets everything to that point, but keeps any experience you've 
>>>>>>>> gained.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> sound right?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 9:08 AM, <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I dunno about gold
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *From*: Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>> *Date*: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:06:50 -0700
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *To*: <project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> *Subject*: [project1dev] Re: combat musings - injuries, status,
>>>>>>>> party list, matchups and tagteaming
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ok so lose all items but keep exp and gold?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> i think thats doable.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think i'll just have it do the game save / load idea, but make it
>>>>>>>> over-write the exp and gold after load with your at death exp and gold.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> any other values we want to persist past death we can do in a
>>>>>>>> similar manner too (:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm with Eric, you don't want to let them keep items when they die.
>>>>>>>> I think keeping experience is good. If we design our dungeons properly 
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> should be no reason for a boring walk back to town anyway. All levels 
>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>>> be engaging at all times, especially when they are almost finished. 
>>>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>>> when you should pull out the big surprises.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was thinking you could do it DnD style where your not really dead
>>>>>>>> untill you achieve negative 10 life. So when you hit 0 your player or 
>>>>>>>> party
>>>>>>>> member is knocked out and unusable. If you don't swap them out of 
>>>>>>>> combat
>>>>>>>> they can still be targeted. If a knocked out player (a player with 0 
>>>>>>>> life)
>>>>>>>> is damaged further they can die, perhaps if your maxlife (as eric 
>>>>>>>> described
>>>>>>>> above) drops below 0. A complete loss will only occur when everyone is 
>>>>>>>> dead
>>>>>>>> and the player should not be able to be killed but only knocked out to >>>>>>>> 0
>>>>>>>> life. If there are no surviving party members to first aid him then 
>>>>>>>> the team
>>>>>>>> loses and returns to a node.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that makes sense about the knockout before dying.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> About not keeping items that makes sense.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Should they keep exp even then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If not, we could just do an automatic game save at the spirit node
>>>>>>>> and then load that when they died.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can you think of a situation you'll ever want to do that is an
>>>>>>>> exception to the rule?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:49 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> turnbased fantasy rpg version of americas army style gameplay  :-P
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That sounds decent (:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:45 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> well i think health would probably work like a hybrid of halo and
>>>>>>>> marvel vs capcom where you have two health bars, current life and max 
>>>>>>>> life,
>>>>>>>> your current life can go up via auto healing or first aid, but your 
>>>>>>>> max life
>>>>>>>> cannot be restored unless you're in a town.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> main character has:
>>>>>>>> max hp 100
>>>>>>>> current hp 100
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> he gets punched, losing life
>>>>>>>> max hp 90
>>>>>>>> current hp 70
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> now he uses first aid, bringing him back up to 90 (100 is truemax,
>>>>>>>> but he cannot attain that)
>>>>>>>> max hp 90
>>>>>>>> current hp 90
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> this will also influence the strategy of party set up, tagteaming,
>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hey just thought of something else too...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eric if you hate the war of attrition we could go the route of the
>>>>>>>> modern games (or at least try it) like halo where you have hp but it
>>>>>>>> recovers over time (like when you are in back row or maybe not in 
>>>>>>>> combat...
>>>>>>>> or potentially all the time?)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not sure if its a good idea, but its an idea :P
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> lol
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I like the FF view better myself.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm am curious for the answer to Alan's questions as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:32 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 100% definitely.  either ff style or maybe where its 3rd person over
>>>>>>>> teh shoulder style.  i think you should be able to see them and with 
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> gameplay style i think it'll be needed to show whats going on - 
>>>>>>>> visually and
>>>>>>>> mechanically it'll be better.  i was actually gonna bring this up when 
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> got into more detailed combat stuff :) glad we're on the same page 
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BTW what do you think about us changing our battle view from the
>>>>>>>> dragon quest 5 view to the final fantasy view?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I kinda miss being able to see the characters, and see the weapons /
>>>>>>>> attacks and skills the players use.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it makes the combat more epic and fun. Like think of
>>>>>>>> fighting vargas or ultros where you see his tentacles slap your 
>>>>>>>> players, can
>>>>>>>> you remember a fight like that at all in DQ5? i cant...most of the 
>>>>>>>> fights
>>>>>>>> are unmemoriable, except for the ones where like 10 slimes form into 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> slime king hehe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:25 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think switching out your characters could work, that kinda sounds
>>>>>>>> cool and i can picture it in my head.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When you would switch, would you be able to switch any turn of
>>>>>>>> combat, only the first, or what?  Also is there a penalty to switching 
>>>>>>>> or is
>>>>>>>> it for free?  I'm just curious cause if one guy was dying you could 
>>>>>>>> swap him
>>>>>>>> out with another and have a fresh guy, is that ok?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If so we could do soemthing like marvel vs capcom i think it was,
>>>>>>>> where the team mates that are in the back row and not fighting slowly 
>>>>>>>> heal
>>>>>>>> their wounds (in this case they heal a small amount as round time
>>>>>>>> progresses) what you think?  If that is too overpowered, it could be
>>>>>>>> something like they can only heal maximum up to the life they had 
>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>> they got struck in the current battle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Being held by one character and attacked by another makes sense.
>>>>>>>> Maybe its a skill, and what happens is when you use that skill, the
>>>>>>>> character that used it has to keep using it each turn to hold onto the
>>>>>>>> monster and that monster basically struggles each turn where it has 
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> chance to escape but that uses up it's turn.  Just like real life if 
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> oare outnumbered, grabbing hold of someone or wrestling around with 
>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>> wouldnt be a good idea cause his buddies would kick your butt, but if 
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> is like 1 monster left it could be a cool skill.  Like havin a guy like
>>>>>>>> sabin be able to grab the last enemy and hold him while your other 
>>>>>>>> guys hit
>>>>>>>> him would be a pretty useful skill (:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> About the player never dying, on one hand i could see that working
>>>>>>>> but on the other, couldnt you just scrape through anyhwere by walking
>>>>>>>> through a dungeon and getting knocked out at each fight?  How do you 
>>>>>>>> balance
>>>>>>>> that out?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some cool ideas!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 6:36 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ok here is how i am thinking parties will work in combat...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> there will be 3 active party members in any fight and 4 on the
>>>>>>>> sidelines that can be "tagged in" (swapped) as a combat option for any 
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the active players INCLUDING the hero. this will allow you to sub out
>>>>>>>> injured characters for fresh healthy ones, or if you want two people 
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> can do a special attack, you can have them sub in to pull of a coup de
>>>>>>>> grace, or maybe there is a MATCHUP you want to exploit.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matchups? Huh?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Matchups are basically already existing in games but without
>>>>>>>> anything to quantify them.  basically, if you're in battle against a 
>>>>>>>> big
>>>>>>>> slow ogre or something, you can adjust your party to better match up 
>>>>>>>> w/ the
>>>>>>>> enemy (enemies) you're fighting.  Maybe you want a big dude that can go
>>>>>>>> mano-y-mano with the ogre, or a small quick dude who can exploit the 
>>>>>>>> ogre's
>>>>>>>> plodding attack and slow defense.  Maybe you're up against a flying 
>>>>>>>> creature
>>>>>>>> and arrows will be the best way to bring them down when standard 
>>>>>>>> attacks
>>>>>>>> seem ineffectual.   Picking the best match up for what you're going 
>>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>>> can mean the difference of life and death.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Injuries/status - we don't just want fights to be wars of attrition
>>>>>>>> where you attack attack attack and try to slowly drain your foes life 
>>>>>>>> (and
>>>>>>>> vice versa) - in real life, this would be the equivelent of standing in
>>>>>>>> front of someone and punching them back and forth until someone died.
>>>>>>>> Silly!  i think most (if not all) of us are experienced martial 
>>>>>>>> artists and
>>>>>>>> we know fights don't work like that, there are holds, throws, etc that 
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> put your opponent in compromising situations that give you the 
>>>>>>>> advantage.
>>>>>>>> Add weapons to this and we have a fun system that is more dynamic than 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> typical rpg combat system.  Examples of this would be 
>>>>>>>> sweeps/tackles/throws
>>>>>>>> that leave the enemy prone and thus unable to defend themselves as 
>>>>>>>> well, or
>>>>>>>> entangled via nets, maybe even HELD by one character while the others 
>>>>>>>> beat
>>>>>>>> it up (could we do this)?  or maybe getting maimed or hamstrung knocks 
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> over, getting stunned (like street fighter when you do a certain 
>>>>>>>> combination
>>>>>>>> the enemy can't move and has birds flying above their head) is another
>>>>>>>> example.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This style of combat would add a lot of depth and strategy and make
>>>>>>>> combat feel more "alive" and dangerous and fun.  Also it adds a lot of
>>>>>>>> potential skills and techniques to our future list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Injuries - with our injury and death system, swapping to keep your
>>>>>>>> team healthy is important.  This is kind of a big thing but I am sort 
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> leaning towards thinking maybe MAYBE the hero can't die.  everyone 
>>>>>>>> else can,
>>>>>>>> but if the hero is "knocked out" in battle, he's back after the fight. 
>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>> can then go forward to try to find the next respawn node or maybe 
>>>>>>>> theres a
>>>>>>>> "Recall" option where you can revert to the start of the dungeon with 
>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> your party members intact.  i think this will eliminate a lot of 
>>>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>>> as well as prevent people from keeping the hero on the sidelines 
>>>>>>>> worried he
>>>>>>>> will die.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> just as a quick guess... i am thinking you get 7 active party
>>>>>>>> members (3 active, 4 tagteamable) and then an additional 7 back at your
>>>>>>>> "home base" that you can swap out ff style whenever you're there for a 
>>>>>>>> total
>>>>>>>> of 14 in your party.  We will (ideally) have 40-50 recruitable 
>>>>>>>> characters so
>>>>>>>> this forces you to make some decisions on who you want to pick but also
>>>>>>>> gives you a large stable of characters so you don't feel like "shit, i 
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to give up one of my favs".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just some thoughts... let me know what you think!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *******************************************************************************************************************************************************************
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> to anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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