[project1dev] Re: combat musings - injuries, status, partylist, matchups and tagteaming

  • From: Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 11:22:01 -0700

if that does make sense maybe we should tweak it so that...

#1 - when a person in your party dies they disapear.  Whenever you come to a
spirit node, it will contain all your fallen team members, you can "pick
them up" but maybe they are still injured.

#2 - when everyone dies, it loads your last save game - and whenever you are
near a spirit node, it auto saves
hows that?
On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> oh i see...
>
> Eric will correct me if i'm wrong but as i see it...
>
> #1 - when a person in your party dies, they teleport back to the last
> spirit node.  You have to go back to pick them up if you want them again
>
> #2 - when everyone dies, it loads your last save game - and whenever you
> are near a spirit node, it auto saves
>
> so spirit nodes are kind of like checkpoints
>
> does that make sense? (im not sure if it does haha)
>   On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:17 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>
>> I thought we were looking for a different death system to avoid monotony
>> and repetition. Since we are settling on the classic start over system, how
>> will we avoid monotony and repetition?
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>
>>> what do you mean kent?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:56 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Will prevention for repetition (such as repeating levels) be in dungeon
>>>> / character / enemy design with a lot of fine balance as opposed to 
>>>> altering
>>>> the concepts of how losing works?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I thought the experience giving you tickets thing was seperate from the
>>>>> dying thing, but the rest sounds right as far as i understand it yeah
>>>>>   On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Kent Petersen 
>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Alan: I agree that the death scenario should not be for every time but
>>>>>> for a few times that make sense for an extra bonus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What did we settle on for saving and dieing? Game autosaves when you
>>>>>> hit a savepoint and when you die you return to your save point with
>>>>>> everything reset. Any experience earned turns into some kind of bonus 
>>>>>> point
>>>>>> that can be spent on games?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Matthew Morgan 
>>>>>> <MMorgan@xxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Gotcha!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>>>>>>> project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:34 AM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *To:* project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> *Subject:* [project1dev] Re: combat musings - injuries, status,
>>>>>>> partylist, matchups and tagteaming
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From the tech side, no reason why we can't do both (:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not sure what the plan is though
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Matthew Morgan <MMorgan@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a q, are the minigames in all the towns, or is it wandering
>>>>>>> vendors (like the guys in fallout who sell stuff?).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>>>>>>> project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:25 AM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *To:* project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> *Subject:* [project1dev] Re: combat musings - injuries, status,
>>>>>>> partylist, matchups and tagteaming
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ok we can just do a straight up load last save game on death, and
>>>>>>> have spirit nodes do autosaves.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> easier to program so im all for it! (:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah your ticket idea sounds good to me
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 10:20 AM, <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Alan, I think maybe the character doesn't keep exp... Ppl could
>>>>>>> exploit that by killing some high exp boss, die and repeat... I was 
>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>> that thing where it keeps track of your total player earned exp and can
>>>>>>> trade it to get minigame tickets - did you not like that idea?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From*: Matthew Morgan
>>>>>>> *Date*: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:02:02 -0700
>>>>>>> *To*: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Subject*: [project1dev] Re: combat musings - injuries, status,
>>>>>>> party list, matchups and tagteaming
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That makes perfect sense, the only thing you get to keep is exp, so
>>>>>>> that would just overwrite after every battle, and everything else would 
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> saved only if in a node?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From:* project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
>>>>>>> project1dev-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]*On Behalf Of *Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:01 AM
>>>>>>> *To:* project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> *Subject:* [project1dev] Re: combat musings - injuries, status,
>>>>>>> party list, matchups and tagteaming
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ok so when you die it does a load of the save it made when you were
>>>>>>> at the last node (or your last save game if you havent hit a node yet?) 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> resets everything to that point, but keeps any experience you've gained.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sound right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 9:08 AM, <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I dunno about gold
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *From*: Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>> *Date*: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 09:06:50 -0700
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *To*: <project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> *Subject*: [project1dev] Re: combat musings - injuries, status,
>>>>>>> party list, matchups and tagteaming
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ok so lose all items but keep exp and gold?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i think thats doable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think i'll just have it do the game save / load idea, but make it
>>>>>>> over-write the exp and gold after load with your at death exp and gold.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> any other values we want to persist past death we can do in a similar
>>>>>>> manner too (:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 9:00 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm with Eric, you don't want to let them keep items when they die. I
>>>>>>> think keeping experience is good. If we design our dungeons properly 
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> should be no reason for a boring walk back to town anyway. All levels 
>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> be engaging at all times, especially when they are almost finished. 
>>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>> when you should pull out the big surprises.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was thinking you could do it DnD style where your not really dead
>>>>>>> untill you achieve negative 10 life. So when you hit 0 your player or 
>>>>>>> party
>>>>>>> member is knocked out and unusable. If you don't swap them out of combat
>>>>>>> they can still be targeted. If a knocked out player (a player with 0 
>>>>>>> life)
>>>>>>> is damaged further they can die, perhaps if your maxlife (as eric 
>>>>>>> described
>>>>>>> above) drops below 0. A complete loss will only occur when everyone is 
>>>>>>> dead
>>>>>>> and the player should not be able to be killed but only knocked out to 0
>>>>>>> life. If there are no surviving party members to first aid him then the 
>>>>>>> team
>>>>>>> loses and returns to a node.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:54 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that makes sense about the knockout before dying.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About not keeping items that makes sense.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Should they keep exp even then?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If not, we could just do an automatic game save at the spirit node
>>>>>>> and then load that when they died.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can you think of a situation you'll ever want to do that is an
>>>>>>> exception to the rule?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:49 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> turnbased fantasy rpg version of americas army style gameplay  :-P
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That sounds decent (:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:45 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> well i think health would probably work like a hybrid of halo and
>>>>>>> marvel vs capcom where you have two health bars, current life and max 
>>>>>>> life,
>>>>>>> your current life can go up via auto healing or first aid, but your max 
>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>> cannot be restored unless you're in a town.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> main character has:
>>>>>>> max hp 100
>>>>>>> current hp 100
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> he gets punched, losing life
>>>>>>> max hp 90
>>>>>>> current hp 70
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> now he uses first aid, bringing him back up to 90 (100 is truemax,
>>>>>>> but he cannot attain that)
>>>>>>> max hp 90
>>>>>>> current hp 90
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> this will also influence the strategy of party set up, tagteaming,
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey just thought of something else too...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eric if you hate the war of attrition we could go the route of the
>>>>>>> modern games (or at least try it) like halo where you have hp but it
>>>>>>> recovers over time (like when you are in back row or maybe not in 
>>>>>>> combat...
>>>>>>> or potentially all the time?)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not sure if its a good idea, but its an idea :P
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> lol
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:35 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I like the FF view better myself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm am curious for the answer to Alan's questions as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:32 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 100% definitely.  either ff style or maybe where its 3rd person over
>>>>>>> teh shoulder style.  i think you should be able to see them and with our
>>>>>>> gameplay style i think it'll be needed to show whats going on - 
>>>>>>> visually and
>>>>>>> mechanically it'll be better.  i was actually gonna bring this up when 
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> got into more detailed combat stuff :) glad we're on the same page there
>>>>>>> too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:28 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BTW what do you think about us changing our battle view from the
>>>>>>> dragon quest 5 view to the final fantasy view?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I kinda miss being able to see the characters, and see the weapons /
>>>>>>> attacks and skills the players use.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it makes the combat more epic and fun. Like think of fighting
>>>>>>> vargas or ultros where you see his tentacles slap your players, can you
>>>>>>> remember a fight like that at all in DQ5? i cant...most of the fights 
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> unmemoriable, except for the ones where like 10 slimes form into the 
>>>>>>> slime
>>>>>>> king hehe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:25 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think switching out your characters could work, that kinda sounds
>>>>>>> cool and i can picture it in my head.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When you would switch, would you be able to switch any turn of
>>>>>>> combat, only the first, or what?  Also is there a penalty to switching 
>>>>>>> or is
>>>>>>> it for free?  I'm just curious cause if one guy was dying you could 
>>>>>>> swap him
>>>>>>> out with another and have a fresh guy, is that ok?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If so we could do soemthing like marvel vs capcom i think it was,
>>>>>>> where the team mates that are in the back row and not fighting slowly 
>>>>>>> heal
>>>>>>> their wounds (in this case they heal a small amount as round time
>>>>>>> progresses) what you think?  If that is too overpowered, it could be
>>>>>>> something like they can only heal maximum up to the life they had before
>>>>>>> they got struck in the current battle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Being held by one character and attacked by another makes sense.
>>>>>>> Maybe its a skill, and what happens is when you use that skill, the
>>>>>>> character that used it has to keep using it each turn to hold onto the
>>>>>>> monster and that monster basically struggles each turn where it has some
>>>>>>> chance to escape but that uses up it's turn.  Just like real life if you
>>>>>>> oare outnumbered, grabbing hold of someone or wrestling around with them
>>>>>>> wouldnt be a good idea cause his buddies would kick your butt, but if 
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> is like 1 monster left it could be a cool skill.  Like havin a guy like
>>>>>>> sabin be able to grab the last enemy and hold him while your other guys 
>>>>>>> hit
>>>>>>> him would be a pretty useful skill (:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About the player never dying, on one hand i could see that working
>>>>>>> but on the other, couldnt you just scrape through anyhwere by walking
>>>>>>> through a dungeon and getting knocked out at each fight?  How do you 
>>>>>>> balance
>>>>>>> that out?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some cool ideas!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 6:36 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ok here is how i am thinking parties will work in combat...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there will be 3 active party members in any fight and 4 on the
>>>>>>> sidelines that can be "tagged in" (swapped) as a combat option for any 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the active players INCLUDING the hero. this will allow you to sub out
>>>>>>> injured characters for fresh healthy ones, or if you want two people 
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> can do a special attack, you can have them sub in to pull of a coup de
>>>>>>> grace, or maybe there is a MATCHUP you want to exploit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matchups? Huh?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Matchups are basically already existing in games but without anything
>>>>>>> to quantify them.  basically, if you're in battle against a big slow 
>>>>>>> ogre or
>>>>>>> something, you can adjust your party to better match up w/ the enemy
>>>>>>> (enemies) you're fighting.  Maybe you want a big dude that can go
>>>>>>> mano-y-mano with the ogre, or a small quick dude who can exploit the 
>>>>>>> ogre's
>>>>>>> plodding attack and slow defense.  Maybe you're up against a flying 
>>>>>>> creature
>>>>>>> and arrows will be the best way to bring them down when standard attacks
>>>>>>> seem ineffectual.   Picking the best match up for what you're going 
>>>>>>> against
>>>>>>> can mean the difference of life and death.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Injuries/status - we don't just want fights to be wars of attrition
>>>>>>> where you attack attack attack and try to slowly drain your foes life 
>>>>>>> (and
>>>>>>> vice versa) - in real life, this would be the equivelent of standing in
>>>>>>> front of someone and punching them back and forth until someone died.
>>>>>>> Silly!  i think most (if not all) of us are experienced martial artists 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> we know fights don't work like that, there are holds, throws, etc that 
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> put your opponent in compromising situations that give you the 
>>>>>>> advantage.
>>>>>>> Add weapons to this and we have a fun system that is more dynamic than 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> typical rpg combat system.  Examples of this would be 
>>>>>>> sweeps/tackles/throws
>>>>>>> that leave the enemy prone and thus unable to defend themselves as 
>>>>>>> well, or
>>>>>>> entangled via nets, maybe even HELD by one character while the others 
>>>>>>> beat
>>>>>>> it up (could we do this)?  or maybe getting maimed or hamstrung knocks 
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> over, getting stunned (like street fighter when you do a certain 
>>>>>>> combination
>>>>>>> the enemy can't move and has birds flying above their head) is another
>>>>>>> example.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This style of combat would add a lot of depth and strategy and make
>>>>>>> combat feel more "alive" and dangerous and fun.  Also it adds a lot of
>>>>>>> potential skills and techniques to our future list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Injuries - with our injury and death system, swapping to keep your
>>>>>>> team healthy is important.  This is kind of a big thing but I am sort of
>>>>>>> leaning towards thinking maybe MAYBE the hero can't die.  everyone else 
>>>>>>> can,
>>>>>>> but if the hero is "knocked out" in battle, he's back after the fight. 
>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>> can then go forward to try to find the next respawn node or maybe 
>>>>>>> theres a
>>>>>>> "Recall" option where you can revert to the start of the dungeon with 
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> your party members intact.  i think this will eliminate a lot of 
>>>>>>> frustration
>>>>>>> as well as prevent people from keeping the hero on the sidelines 
>>>>>>> worried he
>>>>>>> will die.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> just as a quick guess... i am thinking you get 7 active party members
>>>>>>> (3 active, 4 tagteamable) and then an additional 7 back at your "home 
>>>>>>> base"
>>>>>>> that you can swap out ff style whenever you're there for a total of 14 
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> your party.  We will (ideally) have 40-50 recruitable characters so this
>>>>>>> forces you to make some decisions on who you want to pick but also 
>>>>>>> gives you
>>>>>>> a large stable of characters so you don't feel like "shit, i have to 
>>>>>>> give up
>>>>>>> one of my favs".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just some thoughts... let me know what you think!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *******************************************************************************************************************************************************************
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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