[project1dev] Re: an idea, what do you guys think?

  • From: eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:03:13 -0500

I'm sorry, I didnt mean to imply that you were aggravating me - I am happy
to answer in detail any questions you have.

for reference though, this page should give a general idea of the setting
and theme for the current milestone:
http://pyotek.com/projects/wiki/doku.php?id=milestones2

it has descriptions of the areas and the idea i have in my head for how
things should look and how the area will "work" - but i am happy to fill in
any gaps that you may want me to elaborate on.



On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:25 PM, gabriel taylor <aidyn66@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> I don't mean to aggravate or annoy you with questions, Eric, but I know
> that you have an idea in your head for what you want all this to be, and I
> just want to make sure that it's clearly being described to everyone.  The
> stuff that Alan listed below is a great start, yeah, I've only seen very
> little of that posted on the wiki and forums.  I can't find any place that
> really seems to list the design of the world itself, which would be very
> useful for us artists, so that we can all be on the same page and create
> your vision, instead of creating some amalgamous bastardization coming from
> each person's varied interpretation.  Would it be useful for you if I create
> a list of questions related to the world and the setting, in order to help
> define it clearer for everyone?  That way, you could write down in more
> detail what you're envisioning, and we'd have a communal place to spawn
> ideas from.
>
> ~gabriel
>
> eric wrote:
>
>> I guess I don't really understand what more you want big picture wise, we
>> have a general layout overview (some of which you just posted) of the plot
>> and the way things will develop and we have specifics for the current
>> milestone and things that need to get done now. I am ok with going with your
>> option #3 but unless we somehow get a workflow with accountability and some
>> checks and balances to make sure things get done, the project will continue
>> to languish because its TOO laid back and easy to blow off assignments and
>> tasks. We are all guilty of this - its just a flaw in the system causing us
>> to sorta lazily drift. We've created a poor environment for progress and its
>> turned into a vicious cycle where every once in awhile ppl try to blame
>> various aspects and groups or lack of directions, when EVERYTHING we need is
>> there already - all that's left is to actually do it!
>>
>>
>> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From: * Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>> *Date: *Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:37:07 -0800
>> *To: *<project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> *Subject: *[project1dev] Re: an idea, what do you guys think?
>>
>> i hear ya gabriel, it's hard to see the bigger picture because there arent
>> any documents about it etc :P
>>
>> Eric has a lot of it planned out (the higher level concepts, with plenty
>> of wiggle room for creativity on the details etc) but yeah, it's not written
>> out where we can see so it's hard to know the overall big picture stuff.
>>
>> Hey Eric, what do you think about writing something up or making a diagram
>> about the overall big pic things for peeps to get a feel for the size of the
>> game, a general storyline and stuff like that?
>>
>> Here's some stuff as I know it from things you've said before, but i know
>> we've gotten some new people since you were talking about it last:
>>
>> #1 - the first half of the game is broken up into chapters of a story
>> while the second half of the game is more open world free roam play with
>> exploration (seriously that is going to be my fav part of making the game i
>> think heheh)
>>
>> #2 - the story idea is something like you are a disembodied spirit
>> floating in the void (kind of like an afterlife) and that when you approach
>> the old man, he gives you a body and sends you into the world of the living
>> to do his bidding.
>>
>> #3 - between chapters you can go back to the void area, and as you
>> progress through the game it unlocks more of the void area, which turns out
>> to be a carnival type area with minigames and fun stuff like that
>>
>> #4 - the old man is somehow fighting the gods and in the end you have to
>> make a decision about which side you are on in "the final battle"
>>
>> #5 - the 1st (or 0th) chapter is what we are working on now where you
>> float down as a spirit, talk to the old man who crafts a body for you like
>> you want it, then you talk to the fortune teller which gives you your stats
>> based on answers to questions (or you can hack the fortune teller and choose
>> stats), then you go into the temple which is like an obstacle course to get
>> you familiar with game controls, then you fight a boss at the end to learn
>> about combat
>>
>> #6 - the 2nd chapter happens in a forest and is the first time you go back
>> to the world of the living but i dont know much more than that
>>
>> is that about right?
>>
>> But yeah, the game doesn't have a lot of momentum right now and a lot of
>> people are waiting on the void to be finished so we can move on and they can
>> start working again (ie map builders and designers), but i think thats
>> because we have our milestones right now set up where all art, all building,
>> scripting, etc is finished like 90-95%.
>>
>> Since it takes longer to make art than it does to build an area with temp
>> art and script it, and make it functional, I'm just thinking we should let
>> the art being finished be decoupled from building more areas.
>>
>> I think this will help build us some momentum because instead of asking an
>> artist "hey i need X", an artist will actually be able to see "hey when i
>> walk into this forest it looks really crappy... if i make better looking
>> trees, the game will look 50 times better".  Im hoping this before and after
>> view, of actually being able to see how they affect a game will help inspire
>> artists to contribute (:
>>
>> And i guess thirdly, we just have a general lack of momentum or
>> organization or something.
>>
>> Like Eric was saying, we made a small push to make sure people had tasks
>> they could do, but nothing really came of it. (ie just like the thing with
>> us needing a base skeleton with some basic walking, jumping etc animations).
>>
>> so it's just difficult trying to figure out how can we make sure the game
>> gets steady progress forward?  Right now i think our progress has been
>> something like in the last 3 months we've gotten 1 peice of art? (thank you
>> Katie!!)  We have like 8 artists or something so its just kind of a bummer
>> we are moving at such a slow pace ):
>>
>> Just going at that rate, we'll NEVER finish, so i think our primary
>> problem is figuring out how we can do better than that.
>>
>> the 3 options i was saying is...
>>
>> #1 - we find free / cheap art on the net to use for stuff we don't care
>> about.  The cooler more interesting things can be focused on then, maybe
>> that will help?
>> #2 - the art that we DO make, we should focus on making it as re-useable
>> as possible so we have less overall art to make.  I think this is a good
>> idea, but not everything is re-useable of course
>> #3 - we don't wait for art to be done to move on with building the next
>> areas.  This would let us flesh out the world with temporary art, and maybe
>> seeing more of the world, but ugly with temp art, would inspire more people
>> to want to contribute to make things look ok (:
>>
>> i really think we should do #3 for sure, that #2 is a good idea, and in
>> fact i think #1 might have it's own place too (:
>>
>> but i dunno, im just trying to figure out how we can make progress enough
>> of this game over time that we can finish it someday (like i'd think 1-2
>> years is reasonable, anything more than that is kinda junky... but if people
>> disagree, we can go with whatever the general concensus is).
>>
>> Katies idea of having things more organized on paper / documented when we
>> start an area (and overall) is a really good idea, but we need someone to do
>> that and take ownership over it you know?
>>
>> I figure we can try the #3 option and see if it really does inspire anyone
>> or not, but perhaps some other ideas will come up too.
>>
>> Ideas welcome if you have any! (:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 3:06 PM, eric <figarus@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:
>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>>
>>    I mean, I'm on my phone but I would say really, people know what
>>    they need to be working on and there are fairly extensive design
>>    documents for pretty much every system that needs developed - this
>>    current milestone has had its tasks laid out multiple times and
>>    people available to answer any questions anyone has... Really you
>>    can lead a horse to water but you can't make em drink... If you
>>    guys are thirsty, slurp away.  Frankly I'm tired and aggravated of
>>    people complaining about a lack of direction, every member of art
>>    team has an assignment!  Some tasks have been assigned since may
>>    with little/no progress.
>>    Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>
>>    -----Original Message-----
>>    From: gabriel taylor <aidyn66@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:aidyn66@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>    Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:45:35
>>    To: <project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
>>    Subject: [project1dev] Re: an idea, what do you guys think?
>>
>>    I agree with Katie here.
>>
>>     From what I've been able to glean so far, it seems that the overall
>>    direction of the game does not exist in any written format right now.
>>    Without a clear perspective on the Whole project, by which I don't
>>    mean
>>    the details of coding/shading/artistry, but rather the Scope, Setting,
>>    Story, Length, it's difficult not only for people to work ahead on
>>    things that may not be immediately needed, but difficult for
>>    everyone to
>>    be certain they're on the same page with regard to setting, tone,
>>    desired functionality, etc.  I think it would be useful for
>>    everyone if
>>    we were able to flesh out the world and story behind the game, in
>>    order
>>    to create a more consistent tone and direction between everyone's
>>    work.
>>    Once we have the setting and the story, which will help create each
>>    other as they're created, then we can divide the game into
>>    section/zones/areas (however you want to distinguish parts of the
>>    game),
>>    and work on sub-pieces from there.  Also, we'd be free to drum up
>>    basic
>>    area design and layout before hammering out too much detail on
>>    something
>>    that may later be changed.
>>
>>    It'd definitely be more useful to the art team, and it couldn't
>>    hurt for
>>    the design and coding teams as well.
>>
>>    ~gabriel
>>
>>    katie cook wrote:
>>    > I just meant like what you said you are feeling too.
>>    >
>>    > The art people are waiting on the coders, the coders are waiting on
>>    > the art people.
>>    >
>>    > It would be good to flush out the game first, then worry about
>>    intricacys.
>>    >
>>    > Lay the foundation. Start to build up from there...Frame work,
>>    > insulation..etc.
>>    >
>>    > So figure out what we want in the game as far as areas, length,
>>    > storyline, plot, etc. whatever. Then figure out what each area would
>>    > entail, length, objective, etc. Then maybe lay out a map or
>>    floorplan,
>>    > then figure out what would be necessary to make those areas
>>    functional
>>    > based on the map and objective, then start laying out temp models so
>>    > guys can start scripting stuff, and figuring out what the hiccups
>>    > would be, then when that is at a good spot, then start thinking
>>    about
>>    > the intricacys, details, nicer models, etc.
>>    >
>>    > That way art people can always be working on models, etc, while not
>>    > interupting the scripters, etc. vice versa.
>>    >
>>    >
>>    > --- On *Sat, 11/14/09, Alan Wolfe /<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>>/* wrote:
>>    >
>>    >
>>    >     From: Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>
>>    >     Subject: [project1dev] Re: an idea, what do you guys think?
>>    >     To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>
>>    >     Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 11:29 AM
>>    >
>>    >     Thanks for the feedback Katie.
>>    >
>>    >     How so on trying to build the house without a foundation?
>>    >
>>    >     What kinds of things or steps do you see us missing as we are
>>    >     moving forward?
>>    >
>>    >     Thanks (:
>>    >
>>    >     (and ps if anyone has feedback about anything please feel
>>    free to
>>    >     speak up - or if youd rather email eric or i in private please
>>    >     feel free!)
>>    >
>>    >     On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:23 AM, katie cook
>>    <ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>
>>
>>    >     </mc/compose?to=ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
>>    >
>>    >         I think crappy temp models/temp art could be very helpful in
>>    >         flushing things out.
>>    >
>>    >         And working in a linear fashion isn't necessarily all that
>>    >         important.
>>    >
>>    >         I think option # 3 is a good idea, because even if we work
>>    >         linear, we could always want to go back to an area and spice
>>    >         it up or modify it if we see that something else might work
>>    >         better functionally or what not.
>>    >
>>    >         Alan, I think you are heading in a good direction with
>>    that idea.
>>    >
>>    >         It has been feeling a bit like we are trying to build a
>>    house
>>    >         without laying a foundation first.
>>    >
>>    >
>>    >
>>    >         Katie
>>    >
>>    >         --- On *Sat, 11/14/09, katie cook /<ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>
>>
>>    >         </mc/compose?to=ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>>>/* wrote:
>>    >
>>    >
>>    >             From: katie cook <ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>
>>
>>    >             </mc/compose?to=ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>>>
>>
>>    >             Subject: [project1dev] Re: an idea, what do you guys
>>    think?
>>    >             To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>
>>    >             </mc/compose?to=project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
>>
>>    >
>>    >             Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 11:13 AM
>>    >
>>    >             It seems like the focus has become more about just
>>    getting
>>    >             the game made verses trying to build a game that we are
>>    >             proud of and having fun making along the way...WTF????
>>    >
>>    >             Didn't know we were so concerned getting it cranked
>>    out by
>>    >             a certain time...
>>    >
>>    >             Anyway, just my thoughts.
>>    >
>>    >             I had the impression that part of the goal of the
>>    game was
>>    >             so people could use this as a stepping stone for
>>    portfolio
>>    >             pieces, etc.
>>    >
>>    >             Personally, I'd be embarassed to show anyone the
>>    game, and
>>    >             I'd just show them my individual work if we went this
>>    >             route, but it looks like we have already begun going
>>    that
>>    >             way anyway...
>>    >
>>    >             Katie
>>    >
>>    >             --- On *Wed, 11/11/09, Alan Wolfe
>>    /<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>
>>    >             </mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>>>/* wrote:
>>    >
>>    >
>>    >                 From: Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>
>>    >                 </mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>>>
>>
>>    >                 Subject: [project1dev] an idea, what do you guys
>>    think?
>>    >                 To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>
>>    >                 </mc/compose?to=project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>    <mailto:project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
>>
>>    >                 Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 10:09 PM
>>    >
>>    >                 Hey so i think one thing we've learned from
>>    working on
>>    >                 the RPG so far is that it takes A LOT of art :P
>>    >
>>    >                 Even with a lot of artists theres just a ton of
>>    art to
>>    >                 make and art takes quite a bit of time and effort.
>>    >
>>    >                 i was thinking of a couple ideas to help with
>>    this...
>>    >
>>    >                 #1 - finding free / cheap 3d models and textures on
>>    >                 the net and using them for things that we don't care
>>    >                 alot about (ie furniture perhaps or simple props and
>>    >                 things), that way we spend our "art time" on the
>>    >                 things we want custom which is the cool stuff like
>>    >                 bosses and specific items and characters perhaps?
>>    >
>>    >                 #2 - we could try to make some efforts to make art
>>    >                 re-useable.  This is hard for the void area
>>    since it's
>>    >                 very unique, but for the mine we worked on last, we
>>    >                 could have for instance made "generic cave
>>    walls" art
>>    >                 in a way that it was re-useable.  When we have a
>>    >                 library of re-useable art, building areas should go
>>    >                 quicker cause we already have art assets made.  We
>>    >                 have the ability in game to colorize art
>>    >                 programatically so we can recolor and reuse
>>    models as
>>    >                 well too.
>>    >
>>    >                 #3 - we could change our workflow.  Instead of
>>    trying
>>    >                 to push towards milestones and have every area 100%
>>    >                 done before we move on we could change it up.  We
>>    >                 could just build things up functionally with
>>    whatever
>>    >                 junky art we had (ie the temple as is would be fine
>>    >                 lol).  As long as things are working functionally we
>>    >                 can move on.  I think if we went a route like
>>    this it
>>    >                 would be good to keep a list somewhere of what
>>    needed
>>    >                 to be done artistically such as "the temple
>>    needs real
>>    >                 art and a decoration pass".  The benefit to
>>    going this
>>    >                 route would be that we could just keep building
>>    areas
>>    >                 and moving the game forward.  It may not look pretty
>>    >                 but it should be playable and it could be made
>>    pretty
>>    >                 over time.
>>    >
>>    >                 but hrm, just throwin some ideas out there what
>>    do you
>>    >                 guys think?  Maybe we just say "meh" to art quality
>>    >                 and get the game built with a whole bunch of temp /
>>    >                 programmer art and worry about making it pretty
>>    later
>>    >                 on / at our leisure?
>>    >
>>    >                 It would be nice to move onto the next area and
>>    start
>>    >                 getting some story together and real game play and
>>    >                 stuff (:
>>    >
>>    >
>>    >
>>    >
>>    >
>>
>>    .
>>
>>
>>
>

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