[project1dev] Re: an idea, what do you guys think?

  • From: "eric" <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 01:02:22 +0000

I guess I don't really understand what more you want big picture wise, we have 
a general layout overview (some of which you just posted) of the plot and the 
way things will develop and we have specifics for the current milestone and 
things that need to get done now.  I am ok with going with your option #3 but 
unless we somehow get a workflow with accountability and some checks and 
balances to make sure things get done, the project will continue to languish 
because its TOO laid back and easy to blow off assignments and tasks.  We are 
all guilty of this - its just a flaw in the system causing us to sorta lazily 
drift.  We've created a poor environment for progress and its turned into a 
vicious cycle where every once in awhile ppl try to blame various aspects and 
groups or lack of directions, when EVERYTHING we need is there already - all 
that's left is to actually do it! 



Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 16:37:07 
To: <project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [project1dev] Re: an idea, what do you guys think?

i hear ya gabriel, it's hard to see the bigger picture because there arent
any documents about it etc :P

Eric has a lot of it planned out (the higher level concepts, with plenty of
wiggle room for creativity on the details etc) but yeah, it's not written
out where we can see so it's hard to know the overall big picture stuff.

Hey Eric, what do you think about writing something up or making a diagram
about the overall big pic things for peeps to get a feel for the size of the
game, a general storyline and stuff like that?

Here's some stuff as I know it from things you've said before, but i know
we've gotten some new people since you were talking about it last:

#1 - the first half of the game is broken up into chapters of a story while
the second half of the game is more open world free roam play with
exploration (seriously that is going to be my fav part of making the game i
think heheh)

#2 - the story idea is something like you are a disembodied spirit floating
in the void (kind of like an afterlife) and that when you approach the old
man, he gives you a body and sends you into the world of the living to do
his bidding.

#3 - between chapters you can go back to the void area, and as you progress
through the game it unlocks more of the void area, which turns out to be a
carnival type area with minigames and fun stuff like that

#4 - the old man is somehow fighting the gods and in the end you have to
make a decision about which side you are on in "the final battle"

#5 - the 1st (or 0th) chapter is what we are working on now where you float
down as a spirit, talk to the old man who crafts a body for you like you
want it, then you talk to the fortune teller which gives you your stats
based on answers to questions (or you can hack the fortune teller and choose
stats), then you go into the temple which is like an obstacle course to get
you familiar with game controls, then you fight a boss at the end to learn
about combat

#6 - the 2nd chapter happens in a forest and is the first time you go back
to the world of the living but i dont know much more than that

is that about right?

But yeah, the game doesn't have a lot of momentum right now and a lot of
people are waiting on the void to be finished so we can move on and they can
start working again (ie map builders and designers), but i think thats
because we have our milestones right now set up where all art, all building,
scripting, etc is finished like 90-95%.

Since it takes longer to make art than it does to build an area with temp
art and script it, and make it functional, I'm just thinking we should let
the art being finished be decoupled from building more areas.

I think this will help build us some momentum because instead of asking an
artist "hey i need X", an artist will actually be able to see "hey when i
walk into this forest it looks really crappy... if i make better looking
trees, the game will look 50 times better".  Im hoping this before and after
view, of actually being able to see how they affect a game will help inspire
artists to contribute (:

And i guess thirdly, we just have a general lack of momentum or organization
or something.

Like Eric was saying, we made a small push to make sure people had tasks
they could do, but nothing really came of it. (ie just like the thing with
us needing a base skeleton with some basic walking, jumping etc animations).

so it's just difficult trying to figure out how can we make sure the game
gets steady progress forward?  Right now i think our progress has been
something like in the last 3 months we've gotten 1 peice of art? (thank you
Katie!!)  We have like 8 artists or something so its just kind of a bummer
we are moving at such a slow pace ):

Just going at that rate, we'll NEVER finish, so i think our primary problem
is figuring out how we can do better than that.

the 3 options i was saying is...

#1 - we find free / cheap art on the net to use for stuff we don't care
about.  The cooler more interesting things can be focused on then, maybe
that will help?
#2 - the art that we DO make, we should focus on making it as re-useable as
possible so we have less overall art to make.  I think this is a good idea,
but not everything is re-useable of course
#3 - we don't wait for art to be done to move on with building the next
areas.  This would let us flesh out the world with temporary art, and maybe
seeing more of the world, but ugly with temp art, would inspire more people
to want to contribute to make things look ok (:

i really think we should do #3 for sure, that #2 is a good idea, and in fact
i think #1 might have it's own place too (:

but i dunno, im just trying to figure out how we can make progress enough of
this game over time that we can finish it someday (like i'd think 1-2 years
is reasonable, anything more than that is kinda junky... but if people
disagree, we can go with whatever the general concensus is).

Katies idea of having things more organized on paper / documented when we
start an area (and overall) is a really good idea, but we need someone to do
that and take ownership over it you know?

I figure we can try the #3 option and see if it really does inspire anyone
or not, but perhaps some other ideas will come up too.

Ideas welcome if you have any! (:


On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 3:06 PM, eric <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> I mean, I'm on my phone but I would say really, people know what they need
> to be working on and there are fairly extensive design documents for pretty
> much every system that needs developed - this current milestone has had its
> tasks laid out multiple times and people available to answer any questions
> anyone has... Really you can lead a horse to water but you can't make em
> drink... If you guys are thirsty, slurp away.  Frankly I'm tired and
> aggravated of people complaining about a lack of direction, every member of
> art team has an assignment!  Some tasks have been assigned since may with
> little/no progress.
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gabriel taylor <aidyn66@xxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:45:35
> To: <project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [project1dev] Re: an idea, what do you guys think?
>
> I agree with Katie here.
>
>  From what I've been able to glean so far, it seems that the overall
> direction of the game does not exist in any written format right now.
> Without a clear perspective on the Whole project, by which I don't mean
> the details of coding/shading/artistry, but rather the Scope, Setting,
> Story, Length, it's difficult not only for people to work ahead on
> things that may not be immediately needed, but difficult for everyone to
> be certain they're on the same page with regard to setting, tone,
> desired functionality, etc.  I think it would be useful for everyone if
> we were able to flesh out the world and story behind the game, in order
> to create a more consistent tone and direction between everyone's work.
> Once we have the setting and the story, which will help create each
> other as they're created, then we can divide the game into
> section/zones/areas (however you want to distinguish parts of the game),
> and work on sub-pieces from there.  Also, we'd be free to drum up basic
> area design and layout before hammering out too much detail on something
> that may later be changed.
>
> It'd definitely be more useful to the art team, and it couldn't hurt for
> the design and coding teams as well.
>
> ~gabriel
>
> katie cook wrote:
> > I just meant like what you said you are feeling too.
> >
> > The art people are waiting on the coders, the coders are waiting on
> > the art people.
> >
> > It would be good to flush out the game first, then worry about
> intricacys.
> >
> > Lay the foundation. Start to build up from there...Frame work,
> > insulation..etc.
> >
> > So figure out what we want in the game as far as areas, length,
> > storyline, plot, etc. whatever. Then figure out what each area would
> > entail, length, objective, etc. Then maybe lay out a map or floorplan,
> > then figure out what would be necessary to make those areas functional
> > based on the map and objective, then start laying out temp models so
> > guys can start scripting stuff, and figuring out what the hiccups
> > would be, then when that is at a good spot, then start thinking about
> > the intricacys, details, nicer models, etc.
> >
> > That way art people can always be working on models, etc, while not
> > interupting the scripters, etc. vice versa.
> >
> >
> > --- On *Sat, 11/14/09, Alan Wolfe /<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>/* wrote:
> >
> >
> >     From: Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
> >     Subject: [project1dev] Re: an idea, what do you guys think?
> >     To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >     Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 11:29 AM
> >
> >     Thanks for the feedback Katie.
> >
> >     How so on trying to build the house without a foundation?
> >
> >     What kinds of things or steps do you see us missing as we are
> >     moving forward?
> >
> >     Thanks (:
> >
> >     (and ps if anyone has feedback about anything please feel free to
> >     speak up - or if youd rather email eric or i in private please
> >     feel free!)
> >
> >     On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 11:23 AM, katie cook <ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx
> >     </mc/compose?to=ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >
> >         I think crappy temp models/temp art could be very helpful in
> >         flushing things out.
> >
> >         And working in a linear fashion isn't necessarily all that
> >         important.
> >
> >         I think option # 3 is a good idea, because even if we work
> >         linear, we could always want to go back to an area and spice
> >         it up or modify it if we see that something else might work
> >         better functionally or what not.
> >
> >         Alan, I think you are heading in a good direction with that idea.
> >
> >         It has been feeling a bit like we are trying to build a house
> >         without laying a foundation first.
> >
> >
> >
> >         Katie
> >
> >         --- On *Sat, 11/14/09, katie cook /<ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx
> >         </mc/compose?to=ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>>/* wrote:
> >
> >
> >             From: katie cook <ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx
> >             </mc/compose?to=ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>>
> >             Subject: [project1dev] Re: an idea, what do you guys think?
> >             To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >             </mc/compose?to=project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >
> >             Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 11:13 AM
> >
> >             It seems like the focus has become more about just getting
> >             the game made verses trying to build a game that we are
> >             proud of and having fun making along the way...WTF????
> >
> >             Didn't know we were so concerned getting it cranked out by
> >             a certain time...
> >
> >             Anyway, just my thoughts.
> >
> >             I had the impression that part of the goal of the game was
> >             so people could use this as a stepping stone for portfolio
> >             pieces, etc.
> >
> >             Personally, I'd be embarassed to show anyone the game, and
> >             I'd just show them my individual work if we went this
> >             route, but it looks like we have already begun going that
> >             way anyway...
> >
> >             Katie
> >
> >             --- On *Wed, 11/11/09, Alan Wolfe /<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
> >             </mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>>/* wrote:
> >
> >
> >                 From: Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
> >                 </mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>>
> >                 Subject: [project1dev] an idea, what do you guys think?
> >                 To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >                 </mc/compose?to=project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >                 Date: Wednesday, November 11, 2009, 10:09 PM
> >
> >                 Hey so i think one thing we've learned from working on
> >                 the RPG so far is that it takes A LOT of art :P
> >
> >                 Even with a lot of artists theres just a ton of art to
> >                 make and art takes quite a bit of time and effort.
> >
> >                 i was thinking of a couple ideas to help with this...
> >
> >                 #1 - finding free / cheap 3d models and textures on
> >                 the net and using them for things that we don't care
> >                 alot about (ie furniture perhaps or simple props and
> >                 things), that way we spend our "art time" on the
> >                 things we want custom which is the cool stuff like
> >                 bosses and specific items and characters perhaps?
> >
> >                 #2 - we could try to make some efforts to make art
> >                 re-useable.  This is hard for the void area since it's
> >                 very unique, but for the mine we worked on last, we
> >                 could have for instance made "generic cave walls" art
> >                 in a way that it was re-useable.  When we have a
> >                 library of re-useable art, building areas should go
> >                 quicker cause we already have art assets made.  We
> >                 have the ability in game to colorize art
> >                 programatically so we can recolor and reuse models as
> >                 well too.
> >
> >                 #3 - we could change our workflow.  Instead of trying
> >                 to push towards milestones and have every area 100%
> >                 done before we move on we could change it up.  We
> >                 could just build things up functionally with whatever
> >                 junky art we had (ie the temple as is would be fine
> >                 lol).  As long as things are working functionally we
> >                 can move on.  I think if we went a route like this it
> >                 would be good to keep a list somewhere of what needed
> >                 to be done artistically such as "the temple needs real
> >                 art and a decoration pass".  The benefit to going this
> >                 route would be that we could just keep building areas
> >                 and moving the game forward.  It may not look pretty
> >                 but it should be playable and it could be made pretty
> >                 over time.
> >
> >                 but hrm, just throwin some ideas out there what do you
> >                 guys think?  Maybe we just say "meh" to art quality
> >                 and get the game built with a whole bunch of temp /
> >                 programmer art and worry about making it pretty later
> >                 on / at our leisure?
> >
> >                 It would be nice to move onto the next area and start
> >                 getting some story together and real game play and
> >                 stuff (:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> .

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