[project1dev] Re: Skill Design Input
- From: Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:35:17 -0700
I like the direction Rorac is taking this.
On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Hanaan <designs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> yeah i agree on the replay value. you guys have great reasons for
> talents.
>
> i just dont want us to lose focus of gameplay purpose. In diablo the
> purpose was definitely for replayability. you can beat the game long before
> level 99. but getting there allows you to max every talent you ever want
> for the sake of simply smashing more monsters. it definitely served
> diablo's gameplay purpose. plus the meta game of talents tied in with the
> meta game of gear set collecting. once you beat the game you spent time
> just collecting items. that was the point of diablo at the end of the game.
>
> gemcraft is very purposeful. the talents allow you to strategize each
> map. in the latest flash gemcraft (Cursed Treasure:
> http://deadwhale.com/play.php?game=1415), you cannot get the highest score
> without maxing some talent trees. its there for replayability and score
> topping after you beat the game.
>
> at the end of god of war they pretty much make sure you max out every
> single weapon before beating the final boss. the reason? once you beat him
> you just replay the game on a different mode ...with all your abilities back
> down to level 1. the purpose in god of war is to feel like a god by the
> time you fight zeus. weapon upgrades served that purpose at all costs. no
> talent trees, you just decide where to spend your blood orbs as you collect
> them.
>
> so these are just some examples of how we can keep focus on gameplay in our
> game while designing our talents. i want to emphasize i think everything
> said so far sounds cool and fun! im on board with whatever we do. just
> want to make sure we keep eye on our purpose as we design.
>
> if we have talent trees or just "improve with play" mechanics, what purpose
> will they serve in actual gameplay terms as far as beating the game and
> overcoming challenges?
>
>
> On 6/24/2010 7:00 AM, Nick Klotz wrote:
>
> And I don't believe 'specialization' should be a forced choice in the
> beginning of the game, hindsight will limit the players ability to choose
> what they'd really want. Lightning may sound cool but you may find Earth
> being far cooler/more useful at later stages of the game. It should
> be determined naturally by the player through use of skills, generally
> somebody who wants to specialize will use that elemental skill more often,
> and end up dumping their 'insight' points for further progress.
>
> On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:59 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> The way the trees are being designed now is, it's impossible to max out.
>> You can max a skill, but not an entire tree [unless we later decide
>> there's a reason for full mastery for regular game play] (Dragon for
>> example, if you put every available point into it, you become 2 points short
>> of full mastery).
>> Maybe second or third playthroughs could allow for complete mastery and in
>> return, very difficult enemies?
>>
>> I believe trees add a ton of depth and reply value to a game where
>> otherwise static skill sets can become redundant and give the player less
>> goals to achieve.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:39 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> Heres another wrench to throw in the gears (better earlier than later
>>> right??)
>>>
>>> Another possibility (not saying i think this is best, just throwing it
>>> out there) would be that when you start the game you are forced to choose
>>> your elemental specialization, and from there you are limited to the single
>>> elemental skill tree of your choice, along with the general "town" and
>>> "dragon" tree.
>>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 11:33 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> You bring up an interesting point Hanaan (:
>>>>
>>>> I like talent trees in some games like...
>>>>
>>>> * Diablo / WoW - use talent trees to customize your character to be
>>>> unlike other characters and be a unique type of fighter. A good way to
>>>> make
>>>> your character more unique. Kinda adds some replayability cause you can
>>>> replay the game with a different type of character, customized your own
>>>> way,
>>>> and it's a different experience.
>>>>
>>>> * Gemcraft (flash game) - the talent tree in that game is just how you
>>>> get more powerful. You choose what you get stronger at, but you can replay
>>>> any level as many times as you want to level up moer and spend more points
>>>> in the talent trees til all the skills are maxed out.
>>>>
>>>> I dont like talent trees in some random flash games because they are
>>>> pointless (you dont really have a choice) or in some other games, you are
>>>> just going to max everything out in the end anyways so why bother (gemcraft
>>>> to a degree but kind of not... also fable 2).
>>>>
>>>> I kinda pulled adding talent trees outa the air to add more depth to our
>>>> game but are they appropriate? Maybe we should talk about their purpose
>>>> some in our game (:
>>>>
>>>> #1 - Do we want talent tress to be there to customize your character to
>>>> have a unique game play experience / promote replay? I think this could be
>>>> an appropriate use of things. We'd have to design the trees / game with
>>>> this in mind up front though so this is a good time to think about it.
>>>>
>>>> #2 - Do we want to use talent trees as the way of the player choosing
>>>> how they get more powerful each level, but in the end they basically max
>>>> everything out and become godlike? We could go this way maybe but shrug...
>>>>
>>>> What do you guys think would be fun / a good way to go for our game?
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Hanaan <designs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> very nice ideas guys.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the core question is how important are the skills to gameplay.
>>>>> if we are aiming to keep it simple, then all the skills should serve a
>>>>> direct purpose to gameplay in my opinion, instead of just having a variety
>>>>> of skills for skills sake. talent trees are a meta game. whenever
>>>>> theres a
>>>>> talent tree in a video game it serves as alternate advancement. unless
>>>>> this
>>>>> is our aim in the game, im not seeing the point in talent trees.
>>>>>
>>>>> a good example of functional, fun skills in a game is actually god of
>>>>> war. comes to mind because ive been playing it lately, hehe :) Kratos
>>>>> has
>>>>> many different weapons, all with different styles, looks, feels and
>>>>> purposes. but every single one has a purpose very important to gameplay.
>>>>> you gain new power moves by using weapons basically (killing things) so
>>>>> everyone likes that idea already.
>>>>>
>>>>> im not a huge fan of talent trees unless the point of the game is
>>>>> character building. but simple spell improvements/enhancements and such
>>>>> can
>>>>> be pretty complex even though simple as someone already put it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/23/2010 2:10 PM, Kent Petersen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Sounds good man. I like where you are going with this. I don't care
>>>>> about penetration in particular as much as I was trying to make a point in
>>>>> variety being good. I like what I hear.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Each skill will have their own unique properties as well as shared
>>>>>> properties, penetration is not 'too much' of a consideration
>>>>>> unless there is going to be horde type attacks in the 1st person view,
>>>>>> overhead kind of eliminates this variable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will there be differences between elemental combat skills? Oh hell
>>>>>> yea there will be. I will be working on creating a rough skill list over
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> next week and releasing new information daily.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If anyone has any problem viewing the file I uploaded please let me
>>>>>> know and I can change the file type to something compatible with what
>>>>>> programs you have. (:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And as always, if anybody has any other ideas, suggestions,
>>>>>> concerns, please voice them! Feedback is the absolute most critical thing
>>>>>> during the design and concept phases!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I like the where you are going with this system. I like how the
>>>>>>> skills you use will get better with time. I have always enjoyed that
>>>>>>> concept
>>>>>>> in games. It makes me want to use my skills more to see how powerful
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> will become.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are there going to be specific differences between the elemental
>>>>>>> combat skills? For example fireball may have a blast radius while
>>>>>>> lightning
>>>>>>> penetrates through targets. Or is that going to be more of an insight
>>>>>>> thing?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Nick Klotz
>>>>>>> <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yea, the basic idea of it would be that the basic skills you start
>>>>>>>> out with are still very useful and important at the later stages of
>>>>>>>> the game
>>>>>>>> so its not like, "oh I start with this but why level it when I won't
>>>>>>>> use it
>>>>>>>> later"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Without getting into the art side of it too much, yes I had
>>>>>>>> thoughts of different graphics such as larger fireballs, etc, as the
>>>>>>>> skill
>>>>>>>> improved, at least as far as the basic "bolt spells" go.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Glad you like the idea, any other input or ideas, and feedback is
>>>>>>>> surely welcome.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 8:41 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> you know... the "using a skill to make it better" idea is really
>>>>>>>>> awesome...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> i really like the direction you are going with all this (:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> what would be really neat too would be if we did something such as
>>>>>>>>> at every 10 levels of a skill (could be different for different
>>>>>>>>> skills), the
>>>>>>>>> graphics of a skill could change too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's kind of the idea of fire 1, fire 2, fire 3 from final fantasy
>>>>>>>>> but itd be the same spell you just get better at it and the visual
>>>>>>>>> effects
>>>>>>>>> look more awesome.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> we could do fun stuff too like make a really wimpy spell that if
>>>>>>>>> you level it up does a ton of damage to the hardest enemies in the
>>>>>>>>> game and
>>>>>>>>> that kinda thing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ::high five::
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> really nice Nick, this is great stuff
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hey Nick, nice job!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Im a fan of making it simple too usually and that simple rules can
>>>>>>>>>> make for more complex gameplay (ironically!) but i think if done
>>>>>>>>>> right,
>>>>>>>>>> these different options could make a lot of replay in the game with
>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>> wanting to try diff methods and play styles.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Player would gain 3 points per level to use on the tree, this
>>>>>>>>>> model assumes 17 playable areas (9 overworld, 8 first person) and a
>>>>>>>>>> potential of 4 total level ups per area, so an assumed max level of
>>>>>>>>>> 68"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cool deal. If we end up making more levels or less, we should be
>>>>>>>>>> able to scale the points per level or # of level ups per level to
>>>>>>>>>> stretch or
>>>>>>>>>> squish this i think. This is a good starting metric for us to work
>>>>>>>>>> towards
>>>>>>>>>> but yeah, just pointing out we can adjust if necesary w/o too much
>>>>>>>>>> impact on
>>>>>>>>>> things (hopefully!)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I like your idea of making it so the more you use a skill the
>>>>>>>>>> better you get at it (and similar skills). Do you think we'd show
>>>>>>>>>> someone's
>>>>>>>>>> profficiency in a specific skill to them or would it happen behind
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> scenes?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 4:45 PM, Nick Klotz <
>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So I've been mulling over ideas for skillsets, how they will
>>>>>>>>>>> work, various variables, etc, and I've talked to Eric a little
>>>>>>>>>>> about balance
>>>>>>>>>>> and simplicity vs complicating things just to be complicated, but I
>>>>>>>>>>> feel
>>>>>>>>>>> complication adds depth. In light of that, I wanted some input,
>>>>>>>>>>> because I
>>>>>>>>>>> believe that complication adds tremendous depth and replay value if
>>>>>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>>>> simple to the user.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have in mind a couple dozen skills, along with 8 trainable
>>>>>>>>>>> skill trees, with two separate types of level ups for all Elemental
>>>>>>>>>>> trees.
>>>>>>>>>>> Player would gain 3 points per level to use on the tree, this
>>>>>>>>>>> model assumes
>>>>>>>>>>> 17 playable areas (9 overworld, 8 first person) and a potential of
>>>>>>>>>>> 4 total
>>>>>>>>>>> level ups per area, so an assumed max level of 68 (game could be
>>>>>>>>>>> playable at
>>>>>>>>>>> final stages at much earlier levels for players who decide not to
>>>>>>>>>>> go over an
>>>>>>>>>>> area several times to gain exp)
>>>>>>>>>>> Skill Trees: [Elemental] Fire, Water, Earth, Wind, Lightning
>>>>>>>>>>> [Other] Population, Town, Dragon
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Insight leveling and combat leveling are combined to figure the
>>>>>>>>>>> total overall power, however mastering one skill may not be the most
>>>>>>>>>>> beneficial to the player, allowing for these two types provide the
>>>>>>>>>>> ability
>>>>>>>>>>> to specialize as well as keep the player balanced in other areas.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [Insight Leveling]
>>>>>>>>>>> Skill points sent into the trees via leveling will increase
>>>>>>>>>>> overall abilities, and unlock more sub-skill sets, including the
>>>>>>>>>>> ability to
>>>>>>>>>>> combine skills for devastatingly powerful attacks. There will be
>>>>>>>>>>> enough of
>>>>>>>>>>> these to insure that spreading out points will not necessarily
>>>>>>>>>>> yield any
>>>>>>>>>>> advantage or disadvantage over dumping all points into a specific
>>>>>>>>>>> skill.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [Combat Leveling]
>>>>>>>>>>> Combat leveling is gained via using Elemental skills. Combat
>>>>>>>>>>> leveling increases all attributes of all skills under its relative
>>>>>>>>>>> element,
>>>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>> Max level for any element or skill is hard capped at 50
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fireball - Skill Name
>>>>>>>>>>> Fire - Skill Element
>>>>>>>>>>> ManaCost -
>>>>>>>>>>> CoolDown - Time in seconds between being able to use the skill
>>>>>>>>>>> Speed - Speed the physical attack moves from player to target
>>>>>>>>>>> BaseDamage - Damage
>>>>>>>>>>> DamageRadius -
>>>>>>>>>>> SplashDamage - Damage outside the normal damage radius
>>>>>>>>>>> SetOnFire - %Chance to set target on fire causing damage over
>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>> OnFire_Damage - Damage per second target takes
>>>>>>>>>>> OnFire_Duration - Time in seconds target will remain on fire
>>>>>>>>>>> FireResistance - %Resistance player gains from fire based damage
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Capture.PNG]
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If more information is necessary on examples and how this type
>>>>>>>>>>> of leveling system will work, please feel free to ask, I have more
>>>>>>>>>>> notes,
>>>>>>>>>>> and am currently working on more material, but I don't want to get
>>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>>> involved with this method unless approved.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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