[project1dev] Re: Scale
- From: Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:09:27 -0500
Nick: Lord of Destruction, or Lady of Dance? hmmmm
Anyway, per zooming/getting close to models. Since the game is optimized for
the angle it's at, there won't be too many scenario's where a model/texture
will be right up on the screen (if we design the levels properly!).
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 12:07 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Nick: LOD hehe (:
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:05 PM, Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>
>> I looked that up, am I correct in thinking that they can just scan a
>> light over a cpu and tell what parts are using the most energy (thus
>> instructions)?
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Alan Wolfe<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> > yeah, ID is amazing. they profile their code with osciliscopes to see
>> where
>> > in the hardware the bottlenecks are :P
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I like how you're not surprised they were able to do it. :) It looks
>> >> like it just takes a certain amount of coding knowledge to be able to
>> >> apply it in ways that don't seem possible.
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 9:52 PM, Alan Wolfe<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >> > there's algorithms for things like this.
>> >> >
>> >> > for textures you can calculate at various distances how many texture
>> >> > pixels
>> >> > there are per screen pixels (also taking into account the object's
>> >> > scale)
>> >> > and try to make it 1 to 1.
>> >> >
>> >> > For instance if something has a super high resolution texture or is
>> >> > scaled
>> >> > way down, you might have 8 texture pixels per screen pixel which is a
>> >> > lot.
>> >> > You could then make the texture 1/8th as large and have it so 1
>> texture
>> >> > pixel equals 1 on screen pixel.
>> >> >
>> >> > That's the ideal most of the time.
>> >> >
>> >> > similarly for models, you can take a look at each vertex and if you
>> >> > remove
>> >> > the vertex see how many pixels on screen would "pop" and anything
>> which
>> >> > was
>> >> > within the reasonable tolerance, it would get rid of, but keep from
>> >> > removing
>> >> > vertices that make a huge impact.
>> >> >
>> >> > Like for instance if you had a cone shaped nose for a character you
>> >> > wouldn't
>> >> > remove the tip of the nose cause that would make the nose go flat
>> which
>> >> > is
>> >> > really noticeable, but you might remove some of the vertices on the
>> base
>> >> > of
>> >> > the nose since doing that is going to make it less round, but that
>> >> > doesnt
>> >> > really affect how the model looks.
>> >> >
>> >> > these are just 2 ways but theres all sorts of algorithms to do this
>> >> > stuff
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Wow, that really is impressive. That gives artists and builders so
>> >> >> much more freedom it's crazy. I don't even know how one would go
>> >> >> about creating that system!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 9:42 PM, Alan Wolfe<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Oh and something really interesting to note!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > The geniouses at ID software (carmack etc) have their current
>> engine
>> >> >> > working
>> >> >> > where artists submit huge high resolution textures and way high
>> >> >> > polycount
>> >> >> > models, and the engine scales each down to only what is needed and
>> >> >> > automatically gets rid of the waste.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > it's a neat system, but ID software is like the best of the best
>> so
>> >> >> > it's
>> >> >> > no
>> >> >> > surprise :P
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
>> >
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Well the scaling issues should all but disapear because the
>> artists
>> >> >> >> are
>> >> >> >> going to make models to scale and building won't require making
>> >> >> >> things
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> right size for the most part. This is important too because an
>> >> >> >> artist
>> >> >> >> makes a model to be a specific size. If a builder make it bigger
>> >> >> >> than
>> >> >> >> that,
>> >> >> >> it's going to look bad like you saw with the stretched textures.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The solution to the problem you hit is just to have the artists
>> make
>> >> >> >> objects the right size and have the builders not have to worry
>> about
>> >> >> >> it.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> the idea of being able to place a bunch of models down in
>> specific
>> >> >> >> intervals is a good idea, its probably something we'll need a
>> lot.
>> >> >> >> This can
>> >> >> >> be done via some script magic currently but i'll put it on the
>> list
>> >> >> >> as
>> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> wish item for later (:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> something you might like, is if you type "clone" in the console
>> when
>> >> >> >> you
>> >> >> >> have something selected, it will clone your selection so that
>> when
>> >> >> >> you
>> >> >> >> click, it will place an object rotated and scaled the exact same
>> >> >> >> place
>> >> >> >> where
>> >> >> >> you click. that should help with this point you bring up too.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> In general we want to only use as many verts and texture
>> resolution
>> >> >> >> as
>> >> >> >> we
>> >> >> >> need.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> It's true that if we give a higher res texture to an object and
>> >> >> >> extra
>> >> >> >> verts then we can scale it up and it will still look good, but
>> with
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> artists making objects of the right size for the game, we won't
>> ever
>> >> >> >> be
>> >> >> >> scaling things past where they should be so i think the artists
>> >> >> >> should
>> >> >> >> keep
>> >> >> >> on doin like they have, just use the lowest res texture needed to
>> >> >> >> make
>> >> >> >> an
>> >> >> >> object look good at the scale they want it.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> make sense?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Chris Riccobono
>> >> >> >> <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> Not to keep begging for more editor features....
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> But if we have setscale combined with being able to see exact
>> >> >> >>> dimensions of a model when you click on it, then we could have
>> >> >> >>> setsize
>> >> >> >>> and keep placing models to that exact dimension set. And then
>> >> >> >>> combined with the snapto command, we could actually keep placing
>> >> >> >>> models every set amount of space, and they would be exactly
>> >> >> >>> aligned.
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> I don't know if this makes full sense but it did when I was
>> typing
>> >> >> >>> it
>> >> >> >>> :x
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 9:15 PM, Chris
>> >> >> >>> Riccobono<crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>> wrote:
>> >> >> >>> > When I was building I found it easier when a model had a good,
>> >> >> >>> > high
>> >> >> >>> > res texture. They can't be too big cuz of cost, of course,
>> but
>> >> >> >>> > if
>> >> >> >>> > the
>> >> >> >>> > texture is unrepeating and pretty, you can almost scale the
>> model
>> >> >> >>> > any
>> >> >> >>> > way you want and not have to worry.
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > When making floors, walls, and ceilings, it seems better to
>> have
>> >> >> >>> > lower
>> >> >> >>> > res and lower size models. This helps when tiling and
>> aligning
>> >> >> >>> > things. For example, the first version of the voidmap had
>> some
>> >> >> >>> > issues
>> >> >> >>> > because the main asteroid was very large and oddly shaped. I
>> had
>> >> >> >>> > to
>> >> >> >>> > almost scale it to a pancake on the Z axis because of that,
>> and
>> >> >> >>> > even
>> >> >> >>> > then there were still problems with being able to walk under
>> and
>> >> >> >>> > around things placed on it.
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > Oddly shaped models are very pretty as decoration though, like
>> >> >> >>> > the
>> >> >> >>> > fortune teller tent props, the rock piles in cavemap, and the
>> new
>> >> >> >>> > trees in voidmap.
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > Hey Alan, maybe we can get around the iffyness of scaling in
>> the
>> >> >> >>> > editor by being able to set a value of default scale in the
>> >> >> >>> > console.
>> >> >> >>> > Maybe something like "setscale 0.5 0.5 0.5", so then
>> everything
>> >> >> >>> > you
>> >> >> >>> > place will already have a scale of that value.
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>> > On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Alan
>> >> >> >>> > Wolfe<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>> > wrote:
>> >> >> >>> >> Yeah, just to re-iterate, scaling in the editor is just like
>> >> >> >>> >> what
>> >> >> >>> >> happens in
>> >> >> >>> >> real life if you stretch an object.
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >> the texture stretches too and will look distorted if you
>> stretch
>> >> >> >>> >> it
>> >> >> >>> >> too
>> >> >> >>> >> much, or stretch it too far on one axis vs the others
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >> the idea is that when we make models we want to make it so 10
>> >> >> >>> >> units
>> >> >> >>> >> =
>> >> >> >>> >> 1
>> >> >> >>> >> meter so that when a builder places an object in the level
>> that
>> >> >> >>> >> they
>> >> >> >>> >> dont
>> >> >> >>> >> have to scale it, since the artist has an idea of how big the
>> >> >> >>> >> object
>> >> >> >>> >> should
>> >> >> >>> >> be in the world, and scaling takes extra time when building.
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >> thats the ideal, but of course it may take us quite a few
>> >> >> >>> >> iterations
>> >> >> >>> >> before
>> >> >> >>> >> we are all on the same page about how to make that happen (:
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Nick Klotz
>> >> >> >>> >> <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >>> >>> Textures get stretched and compressed at the same ratio you
>> >> >> >>> >>> scale.
>> >> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 9:45 AM, katie cook <
>> ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>
>> >> >> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >> >>> >>>> Hey Guys,
>> >> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >> >>> >>>> When you scale a model in the level editor, does it scale
>> the
>> >> >> >>> >>>> textures
>> >> >> >>> >>>> proportionately? OR does it stretch them as you scale?
>> >> >> >>> >>>>
>> >> >> >>> >>>
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >>
>> >> >> >>> >
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
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>
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