[project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270
- From: Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:01:51 -0700
I like Eric's system. it is a hybrid of what everyone wants.
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 10:37 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> as do all men (and some women)
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> I wish women felt the same about relationships.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:30 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> i guess a better way to say it is, i am all about value and bang for the
>>> buck. i am for making things complex and intricate - as long as adding that
>>> complexity provides more depth and fun. if its just complex for the sake of
>>> making things more complex, i just dont see the point...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> "we should make it as simple as possible and i am for simplicity for the
>>>> record"
>>>> You guys have no idea how true this is. You wouldn't believe the ideas
>>>> and systems I had to rethink when coming up with a basic combat design.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:21 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> no problem :P hehe... yeah if it was an arcade game i would be in total
>>>>> agreement that we should make it as simple as possible and i am for
>>>>> simplicity for the record - as long as its not at the cost of versatility
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:15 PM, katie cook <ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My bad E =P I have had no idea really how far/deep you guys were
>>>>>> wanting to go (hence me saying I wasn't for sure. I though I caught a
>>>>>> while
>>>>>> back you guys mentioning launch on XBLA and I just got arcade in my head.
>>>>>> Thanks for the clarification E.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With my new understanding of the game =), I am on board with all the
>>>>>> previously mentioned scenarious on abilities for jumping/armor, etc. Not
>>>>>> that I wasn't before, I was just slightly concerned about overthinking
>>>>>> simplistics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On *Wed, 6/24/09, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>* wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Subject: [project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270
>>>>>> To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 6:27 AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> i want to explicitely thank chris, alan and katie for offering the
>>>>>> counter points to my original thought, i really think having alternate
>>>>>> perspectives of things will allow us to fully explore elements of game
>>>>>> design like this and that it will ultimately deliver a better, more
>>>>>> intuitive and most importantly more FUN gaming experience. I do not mind
>>>>>> debating the points as I have done below because frankly, if I cannot
>>>>>> defend
>>>>>> the game design philosophy then the system we're discussing is probably
>>>>>> broken and i need to work on it some more. besides that, it has been
>>>>>> my experience in designing the combat with nick that when debating ideas
>>>>>> like this it occasionally inspires great new ideas. I actually consider
>>>>>> this to be a vital part of "pre-testing" so please, I encourage you to
>>>>>> continue offering your insights and perspectives!
>>>>>> To give you a specific example, your idea about armor making you
>>>>>> slower and jump shorter will generally make players avoid doing that
>>>>>> in any instance they can. In action based games, skilled players will
>>>>>> go towards what is as fast and damaging as possible, and will avoid
>>>>>> things like that on purpose.
>>>>>> - this is by design, we want to encourage people who are exploring to
>>>>>> use lighter armor, it makes no sense to go on a journey into a mysterious
>>>>>> temple that is bound to have traps, puzzles, etc. in full plate armor.
>>>>>> We
>>>>>> want that style of armor to be reserved for people who accept the
>>>>>> penalty of
>>>>>> speed/jumping for the enhanced ability to take hits without getting
>>>>>> damage.
>>>>>> this is a player choice.
>>>>>> Also, having injuries slow you down will make players feel like they
>>>>>> can't be damaged. For things like this you want to flip the tables,
>>>>>> and instead create armor that gives players more speed, but they take
>>>>>> more damage. It might seem like a small thing, but in the eyes of a
>>>>>> player it can make a huge difference in gameplay.
>>>>>> - also by design. We want players to feel like there are concequences
>>>>>> to being injured and it should be avoided as much as possible. There are
>>>>>> penalties for being injured or dying - that is a major part of the combat
>>>>>> design here. We are trying to break away from the constant
>>>>>> healing/ressurection that has been the common thread in most rpgs. we're
>>>>>> trying to get away from the attrition system. more info on this below
>>>>>> Basically ask yourself if you would play the game and have fun doing
>>>>>> the things you imagine.
>>>>>> - one of my favorite gaming experiences is america's army, and what
>>>>>> makes it so great and so immersive is that you are constantly in fear of
>>>>>> your life so there is actual tension on the battle field, its not like
>>>>>> tf2
>>>>>> where you run out, spam attacks and if you get killed, oh well, respawn.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> love the idea of players figuring out the best strategies to stay alive
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> learning tactics and skills to do it. yes, it is a challenge - but that
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> what makes it so great! Another game I love, as alan pointed out, is
>>>>>> gemstone. Gemstone was ruthless with one shot kills, getting your leg
>>>>>> chopped off and not being able to climb stuff, etc. like there's areas
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the game you have to take your armor off and be athletic enough to jump
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> order to make it over there. staying alive is a major part of that game
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> everytime you got hit, you would bleed and feel the effects of it. as a
>>>>>> player you had to learn to adapt your skills and player style to prevent
>>>>>> yourself from getting damaged as much as possible. this is a key
>>>>>> element to
>>>>>> the game design we are trying to go with. so to answer your question -
>>>>>> yes,
>>>>>> i think it'd be fun :P
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me when I play arcade-ish
>>>>>> style games like I the ones I think (if I understand correctly) that we
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> trying to make, I think Chris has got a really good point. I like to take
>>>>>> the easiest route possible to get to the next step. Not that we should
>>>>>> flake
>>>>>> on stuff. But we should make sure to not scrutinize/overthink things too
>>>>>> much if that makes sense.
>>>>>> - this is an rpg, not an arcade game! :P the emphasis is on
>>>>>> exploration, not just going as quickly as you can to get to the next
>>>>>> level
>>>>>> (although you can if you so choose). what makes rpg's (and adventure
>>>>>> games)
>>>>>> fun for me is finding all the little secrets that are hidden all over the
>>>>>> world. also, everyone is acting like 5 settings is so complex, really
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> first one is only for special case scenarios and isn't meant to be used
>>>>>> during actual gameplay, and the 5th one is really only to serve as a
>>>>>> special
>>>>>> thing for use like spells, flying, etc. there are only 3 main ones, a
>>>>>> weak
>>>>>> jump for heavily armored players, a normal one for most people, and a
>>>>>> long
>>>>>> jump for people who choose to sacrifice armor for speed and
>>>>>> manueverability
>>>>>> I'd bet this jump level thing would more or less be invisible /
>>>>>> automatic to the player. Like when you were heavier you just dont jump
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> high or as far. The player might not know there are 5 levels of jumping
>>>>>> ability, they might just realize "hey when i take off my armor i can make
>>>>>> that jump to that cave i couldnt get to before" (and of course maybe an
>>>>>> NPC
>>>>>> tips you off to that fact). Or there are boots that have the
>>>>>> description of
>>>>>> "wear to be able to jump higher"
>>>>>> -right, this is all an under the hood system. its funny because when
>>>>>> i write stories, etc. i try to keep things as close to the vest because i
>>>>>> like the reader to be surprised, i like keeping a mystery and something
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> them to discover for themselves. this is also true in my game design
>>>>>> philosophy, give players a ton of neat stuff they can find out for
>>>>>> themselves if they want to... the irony is, as a team we're ALL under the
>>>>>> hood so i have to express all the hidden things to you guys so it can get
>>>>>> made/discussed, but then everyone is like "oh that is overly complicated
>>>>>> there's no reason for that!" without putting themselves in the shoes of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> player who doesn't even know the system exists and that its just there
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> them to discover if they are curious and interested.
>>>>>> 5 different jumps will matter only as much as we design the game for
>>>>>> them to matter. In Diablo 2, the barb jump skill only let you cross
>>>>>> certain terrain that wasn't walkable, so having so many different jump
>>>>>> lengths was easily solved - just make the pits larger. If we can find
>>>>>> an easy solution in our game - an equivalent to "just making the pits
>>>>>> larger" - then we can add as many jumps as we want, and even make them
>>>>>> scale into flying!
>>>>>> I recently learned how to do the shinespark tricks in Metroid
>>>>>> Redesign, and if we could make our jumps in the game require a skill
>>>>>> curve somehow, that would reward the player for the ability to jump
>>>>>> higher... almost like how in 3d Mario games, you have to jump right as
>>>>>> you hit the ground again, within a certain amount of time, so you can
>>>>>> do the triple jump.
>>>>>> -i actually view it as a really simple system that allows for a lot of
>>>>>> neat versatility in game design and player strategy... something that
>>>>>> allows
>>>>>> for more skill based movement if people are interested because i know
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> crazy people (like nick) enjoy finding crazy challenges and trying to
>>>>>> exploit gameplay tools to get into areas, etc. i think that is fun and
>>>>>> great and should be part of our design. i picked 5 as the number so
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> would be differences between teh playing styles while keeping things we
>>>>>> needed to design/test for to the minimum.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> okay so lets get down to brass tacks here (how much for the monkey?)
>>>>>> (3 adunai points to whoever gets the reference)
>>>>>> IMO we have 2 options:
>>>>>> a) 2 jump system - 1 for armor too heavy for you (basically,
>>>>>> non-jumping) and 1 for normal.
>>>>>> pros: easier to design for, easier to test for, no need to think about
>>>>>> armor choices for the player beyond "is it too heavy?"
>>>>>> cons: less versatile, no differences between wearing
>>>>>> light/heavy/medium armor for adventurers, no hidden areas only
>>>>>> accessible by
>>>>>> people who invest and discover ways to jump farther.
>>>>>> b) 5 jump system - as illustrated above
>>>>>> pros: more for the player to discover, another "tool" in our tool box,
>>>>>> gives extra strengths/weaknesses when picking armor and character style
>>>>>> cons: harder to design/test, may baffle some characters.
>>>>>> now obviously i am biased towards B (the 5 jump system) so my pitch
>>>>>> for it is, it'll be simpler in practice for the player/designer than it
>>>>>> may
>>>>>> seem to you right now, it's important for game balance between
>>>>>> heavy/light
>>>>>> armor, players can really just make sure they are at level 3 (normal) and
>>>>>> they will be able to get through the entire game without worrying about
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> difference in jump so i think there is zero bafflement chance, and it
>>>>>> gives
>>>>>> us another neat tool for desiging exploration and hidden stuff in the
>>>>>> game.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am definitely open-minded and can be convinced to go with A) - so
>>>>>> lets open it up to the forum and take a little poll and if you want to
>>>>>> post
>>>>>> comments/thoughts/ideas - then it'll give us more information to make a
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> and intelligent decision.
>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:55 AM, eric drewes
>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i didnt have time to read everythign yet but basically here is my
>>>>>>> take...
>>>>>>> level 1 is basically a "your character is broken level" and doesnt
>>>>>>> need to be designed for, its basically a penalty thing we can use. it
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> the extreme
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> level 2 is needed to differentiate heavy armor from light armor
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> level 3 is what we will design for, it is "normal"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> level 4 is to sepparate quick characters with ultra light armor from
>>>>>>> people wearing normal armor
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> level 5 is a special case scenario type of thing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> we're basically just designing the game for level 3, with maybe a
>>>>>>> small amount of special case scenario areas for level 4/5 (like under
>>>>>>> 2-3
>>>>>>> per chapter)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> i really don't think that it is overly complicated at all and this
>>>>>>> will be a SUBTLE thing, i.e. again, most of the things like this are
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> designed for people who want the bonus, but dont have to have it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> yeah actually thats a good point, i remember playin zelda and you
>>>>>>>> see objects which are obviously repeated (ie black rocks in link to the
>>>>>>>> past, or the docks in zelda 1 etc) and knowing "there is something up
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> those" but you dont know til you have the item. I forgot about that,
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> was kinda fun gameplay :P
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Chris Riccobono <
>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yeah, that's part of the fun of Zelda and Metroid style games...
>>>>>>>>> getting those items that make you able to do things you didn't
>>>>>>>>> predict were
>>>>>>>>> possible, so then the player wonders what cool thing is gonna come
>>>>>>>>> out next
>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>> That's a pretty cool idea for introducing game mechanics.. the
>>>>>>>>> player doesn't know about them at all in the game until they actually
>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> the item for it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> yeah totally i agree with you.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> we were talkin about this before, we were saying having lots of
>>>>>>>>>> optional things to discover in a game makes it seem bigger because
>>>>>>>>>> we don't
>>>>>>>>>> advertise what the "edges" are.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> so yeah totally, if we advertise there are 5 jump levels it ruins
>>>>>>>>>> the magic, but if the player discovers "wtf i jump higher now?" they
>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>> try to see just how high they can jump. Maybe they get to level 4
>>>>>>>>>> and never
>>>>>>>>>> cap out at level 5, as far as they know the sky is the limit even
>>>>>>>>>> though
>>>>>>>>>> they are almost at the cieling hehe.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Chris Riccobono <
>>>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, about the player not knowing there will be 5 jump levels,
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> would trigger the "yay I discovered something" emotion. It's
>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>> fun to learn how to do something to reach new places, you know?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Chris Riccobono<
>>>>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> > I do believe simplicity brings about the most fun when done
>>>>>>>>>>> correctly!
>>>>>>>>>>> > I think part of the fun of a game is learning how to use the
>>>>>>>>>>> system,
>>>>>>>>>>> > too, so when you can learn it very easy at first, you are open
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> > learning new mechanics as things go on.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Alan Wolfe<
>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >> You deffinately have a good point. Our game isn't arcadey per
>>>>>>>>>>> se but it is
>>>>>>>>>>> >> a game where you can go deeper if you want but don't have to.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Like there will be lots to explore but it's all optional (Eric
>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if
>>>>>>>>>>> >> im wrong lol).
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> I'd bet this jump level thing would more or less be invisible
>>>>>>>>>>> / automatic to
>>>>>>>>>>> >> the player. Like when you were heavier you just dont jump as
>>>>>>>>>>> high or as
>>>>>>>>>>> >> far. The player might not know there are 5 levels of jumping
>>>>>>>>>>> ability, they
>>>>>>>>>>> >> might just realize "hey when i take off my armor i can make
>>>>>>>>>>> that jump to
>>>>>>>>>>> >> that cave i couldnt get to before" (and of course maybe an NPC
>>>>>>>>>>> tips you off
>>>>>>>>>>> >> to that fact). Or there are boots that have the description
>>>>>>>>>>> of "wear to be
>>>>>>>>>>> >> able to jump higher"
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> But yeah there is deffinate wisdom to keeping it simple,
>>>>>>>>>>> especially keeping
>>>>>>>>>>> >> the end result the player sees simple.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Someone should be able to pick up the game and be able to play
>>>>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>>>> >> having to read some huge manual :P
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> the old saying "easy to learn difficult to master" yadda yadda
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:13 PM, katie cook <
>>>>>>>>>>> ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me when I play
>>>>>>>>>>> arcade-ish style
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> games like I the ones I think (if I understand correctly)
>>>>>>>>>>> that we are trying
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to make, I think Chris has got a really good point. I like to
>>>>>>>>>>> take the
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> easiest route possible to get to the next step. Not that we
>>>>>>>>>>> should flake on
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> stuff. But we should make sure to not scrutinize/overthink
>>>>>>>>>>> things too much
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> if that makes sense.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> I like the opportunity to get a little bit deeper with a game
>>>>>>>>>>> if I choose
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to at the time, but appreciate when I don't have to. Usually
>>>>>>>>>>> arcades games
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> tend to be shorter in hours played. When I play a short game,
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't wanna
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> have to invest a lot of time and deal with frivilous
>>>>>>>>>>> features. The easier
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the game the funner it is for me (for arcade/short games. I
>>>>>>>>>>> hope this makes
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> sense.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Chris Riccobono
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> From: Chris Riccobono
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Subject: [project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 9:46 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> 5 different jump levels is going to complicate things a bit
>>>>>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> we want. Try to keep in mind that the ideal is to make the
>>>>>>>>>>> game more
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> fun. Ask yourself, will 5 different jumps enhance the game
>>>>>>>>>>> enough to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> warrant the amount of coding, designing, and bug testing they
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> require?
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To reiterate what I tried to stress early on, we want the
>>>>>>>>>>> game to be
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> as fun as possible, as simply as possible. Having a complex
>>>>>>>>>>> game is
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> great if it enhances the experience, but if it doesn't, it
>>>>>>>>>>> becomes a
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> hinderance - just another game, in other words.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To give you a specific example, your idea about armor making
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> slower and jump shorter will generally make players avoid
>>>>>>>>>>> doing that
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> in any instance they can. In action based games, skilled
>>>>>>>>>>> players will
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> go towards what is as fast and damaging as possible, and will
>>>>>>>>>>> avoid
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> things like that on purpose.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Also, having injuries slow you down will make players feel
>>>>>>>>>>> like they
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> can't be damaged. For things like this you want to flip the
>>>>>>>>>>> tables,
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> and instead create armor that gives players more speed, but
>>>>>>>>>>> they take
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> more damage. It might seem like a small thing, but in the
>>>>>>>>>>> eyes of a
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> player it can make a huge difference in gameplay.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Basically ask yourself if you would play the game and have
>>>>>>>>>>> fun doing
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the things you imagine.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Alan Wolfe<
>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > you know the kind of cool thing about this too
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > we could actually make situations that you couldn't escape
>>>>>>>>>>> from, and
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > have
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > things like pits that when you fall into them you die
>>>>>>>>>>> instantly and
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > return
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > to the void.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > those are really mean (literally!) features but if we use
>>>>>>>>>>> them sparingly
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > or
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > in some kind of "i told you not to look in the box"
>>>>>>>>>>> situations that
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > could be
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > actually pretty funny.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > im not sure if you are down with it, but it would bring a
>>>>>>>>>>> feeling of
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > mortality :P
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > ps i'll add the previous ideas to the wiki once i get home
>>>>>>>>>>> if no one
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > else
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > has by then. I dont mind but just can't right now :P
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> yes - harsh but like i said, its an emergency only option
>>>>>>>>>>> to be as a
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> last
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> resort... i think any other way of doing it will allow too
>>>>>>>>>>> many holes
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> for
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> exploits (such as exp or item farming, etc)
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:43 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> so would you lose all exp, gold and items gained then?
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:41 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> yeah i think that is what we';ll do, you can recall to
>>>>>>>>>>> the void at
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> time but it effectively just restores a saved game so
>>>>>>>>>>> you gain no
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> benefit to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> it. We'll make this sort of a last ditch option, so
>>>>>>>>>>> we'll try to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> design it
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> so people never have to use it under normal
>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> no, im just here to poke holes in your ideas <g>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> jk but no im not sure... other than perhaps the player
>>>>>>>>>>> can return to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> the void at any time, and the cost is that you've lost
>>>>>>>>>>> all the time
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> you've
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> taken to progress to where you are (ie you have to walk
>>>>>>>>>>> back)
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:38 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wait i take that back, i'll have to think of a real
>>>>>>>>>>> solution. any
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> ideas?
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> ok
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> is recall always going to be available?
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:35 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> recall
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> ok sounds good. the lax attitude and not needing
>>>>>>>>>>> perfection
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> make it alot easier to test and build. We'll just
>>>>>>>>>>> have to make
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> sure and
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> keep that in mind when designing things.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> actually i think we will probably still have to do
>>>>>>>>>>> a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> testing
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> with the various jumps to make sure people can't
>>>>>>>>>>> get somewhere
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> they arent
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> meant to be that they cant get out of - ie i can
>>>>>>>>>>> enter this
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> level 3 jump
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> area but i can't escape.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> what's your thoughts on that situation?
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:29 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> well 2 things...
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> 1 - i am comfortable with the testing, i think
>>>>>>>>>>> it'll add a lot
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> the game - what do you guys think?
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> 2 - alan i would really say we'd only need to test
>>>>>>>>>>> for 2 things
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> the ability for level 2 to get past areas that
>>>>>>>>>>> have no
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> non-jumping route
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> through and to make sure tier 5 people can't
>>>>>>>>>>> exploit anything
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> we don't want
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> them too... i would say if a tier 3 person can
>>>>>>>>>>> find a way to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> get over
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> something designed as a secret for level 4 people,
>>>>>>>>>>> then that is
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> ok w/ me,
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> and likewise with level 4 getting to level 5
>>>>>>>>>>> areas. if they
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> can find a way
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> to overcome the handicap, i dont want to stop them
>>>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> and of course another option is we just design it
>>>>>>>>>>> where fine
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> tuned details like that aren't important
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> like if you can jump it instead of having to get
>>>>>>>>>>> a rope and
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> climb
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> up, who cares!
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> but shrug just wanted to point out this aspect of
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> solution!
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea. It deffinately makes thigns
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> exploration
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> based since we could put places that you can't
>>>>>>>>>>> get to while
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> starting out
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This isn't a deal breaker but i want to point
>>>>>>>>>>> out this will
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> increase testing and designing time:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to be played with the
>>>>>>>>>>> highest jump level
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure they cant exploit anything they
>>>>>>>>>>> shouldn't be able
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to played with the lowest
>>>>>>>>>>> jump level to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure the minimum we want passable is
>>>>>>>>>>> passable
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * for maps which have a specific jump
>>>>>>>>>>> requirement areas (ie
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> level 3 lets you get to this area) we'll have to
>>>>>>>>>>> play with
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that level as
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> well as the next level down to make sure the one
>>>>>>>>>>> below can't
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> get up too.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:11 PM, eric drewes
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what do you guys think of that scale? that way
>>>>>>>>>>> we dont have
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> guess when we design and we have a baseline
>>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:58 PM, eric drewes
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a voice spoke from the mountain tops,
>>>>>>>>>>> "and let it be
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spoken, there shall be 5 different tiers of
>>>>>>>>>>> jumping
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability, one for hardly
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any jump at all, the next for between the
>>>>>>>>>>> current jump and
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the previous
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels not-really-a-jump, the third is what
>>>>>>>>>>> is there now,
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the fourth for a
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump equal to 1.5x as high/far as the 3rd and
>>>>>>>>>>> a fifth that
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is triple the
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normal jump - this will be reserved for
>>>>>>>>>>> special facet,
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> item boosts or a max
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 100 quickness bonus.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically it is like this:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 1) barely a jump at all, this will be
>>>>>>>>>>> for incredibly
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fat characters (w/ the fat facet) people with
>>>>>>>>>>> super heavy
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor that they
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aren't strong enough to wear, incredibly
>>>>>>>>>>> injured people,
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people with snake
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> torsos, etc :-P
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 2) this is what people wearing
>>>>>>>>>>> plate/heavy chain
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor,
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or have relatively strong long injuries, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>> etc. will
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 3) most characters will have this jump,
>>>>>>>>>>> traps, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be designed with this as the minimum -
>>>>>>>>>>> though
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically we want it to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a challenge for level 3 people. some
>>>>>>>>>>> areas can be
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> designed so it's
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible without level 4 though, but
>>>>>>>>>>> nothing vital to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passing the map -
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, traps/jump areas that aren't accessible
>>>>>>>>>>> except
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through jumping should
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use level 2 as a minimum.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 4) super athletic character with light
>>>>>>>>>>> or no armor
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have this, they can reach special areas the
>>>>>>>>>>> other 3 levels
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't, jump
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> puzzles should be easier for level 4
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 5) these characters are magically
>>>>>>>>>>> imbued or have
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> super
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humanly agility, maybe they have little
>>>>>>>>>>> wings, etc. by
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passable traps, areas
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that can only be reached via long distance
>>>>>>>>>>> travel, etc
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these characters have
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a big advantage on all jumping matters.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Kent
>>>>>>>>>>> Petersen
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, that sounds awful. At least we have
>>>>>>>>>>> learned these
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lessons and now know how to prevent them
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> btw line rider had the same issues tee hee
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In line rider, people were exploiting a
>>>>>>>>>>> simple physics
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation to do tricks like gravity wells
>>>>>>>>>>> and nose
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grinds and other stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we made the commercial version of the
>>>>>>>>>>> game we had
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure all the tricks were still
>>>>>>>>>>> possible and we
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brought in tech dawg to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> play it and make sure everything was still
>>>>>>>>>>> kosher.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the parts that sucked - whenever we
>>>>>>>>>>> optomized something
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game it would break all existing test
>>>>>>>>>>> maps we had
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made so we had to wait
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> til the very end of the game to make the
>>>>>>>>>>> puzzle maps.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, since the DS, Wii and PC all have
>>>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> floating
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point math chips in them (and ds had diff
>>>>>>>>>>> code), maps
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't work the same
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on all the different platforms so we had to
>>>>>>>>>>> keep sharing
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be on the same
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform it was created on.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its ok man ::shakes you:: the wars over,
>>>>>>>>>>> nixon is outa
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> office now
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Kent
>>>>>>>>>>> Petersen
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Kent is having megaman flashbacks*
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Alan
>>>>>>>>>>> Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indeed! I'm going to re-iterate what
>>>>>>>>>>> you said Kent
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so people understand the importance
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we should figure out how high / far we
>>>>>>>>>>> want the
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be able to jump and how strong
>>>>>>>>>>> gravity should be
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muey importante~!
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> once we decide we can't change without
>>>>>>>>>>> having to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and rebalance any existing physics
>>>>>>>>>>> dependant maps (ie
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill jumps, gaps that
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the player should or should not be able
>>>>>>>>>>> to jump over
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc) which is a total
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pain and could really be really really
>>>>>>>>>>> destructive to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our game having to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild and rebalance a whole bunch of
>>>>>>>>>>> crap later.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, lookin at you Eric, we should talk
>>>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finalizing.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything specifically you for
>>>>>>>>>>> sure want the
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player to be able to do? IE jump
>>>>>>>>>>> across a certain
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distance, jump over a
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain hight object etc
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Kent
>>>>>>>>>>> Petersen
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What did you want to do for the first
>>>>>>>>>>> trap? I
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagined
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that there would be 5 or so different
>>>>>>>>>>> looking tiles.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there would be one
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct kind of tile (not the diamond).
>>>>>>>>>>> Then the
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player would have to jump
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about through the tiles to the correct
>>>>>>>>>>> ones. I
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured it would work
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similarly to the ones that were on
>>>>>>>>>>> kenttest.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's your thoughts on that?
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before you get to into designing the
>>>>>>>>>>> temple I would
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highly suggest that we nail down player
>>>>>>>>>>> control and
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jumping physics. Let me
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warn you from experience, if we change
>>>>>>>>>>> how any of
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that works your temple
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will become obsolete.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Kent
>>>>>>>>>>> Petersen
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Been really busy today and will
>>>>>>>>>>> probably be busy
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next couple days. I would suggest
>>>>>>>>>>> leaving the trap
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas open for now. If
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are willing to push on anyway and
>>>>>>>>>>> have specific
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions, send em my
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way and I will be happy to help out
>>>>>>>>>>> when I get a
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Alan
>>>>>>>>>>> Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man that's awesome
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:16 PM,
>>>>>>>>>>> Apache User
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dhapache@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dhapache@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> User:rorac
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: Expanded a little on
>>>>>>>>>>> templemap, added
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> template code as per Kent's
>>>>>>>>>>> advisement.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Need a sign (next room is diamond
>>>>>>>>>>> path). Kent, I
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will need your help to help build
>>>>>>>>>>> that part and
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> begin putting traps in the
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hallway (first right = first trap
>>>>>>>>>>> area).
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Files Changed>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> U Scripts/Maps/templemap.lua
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>> Scripts/Maps/templemap_geometry.lua
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> ;>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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