no problem :P hehe... yeah if it was an arcade game i would be in total agreement that we should make it as simple as possible and i am for simplicity for the record - as long as its not at the cost of versatility On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:15 PM, katie cook <ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > My bad E =P I have had no idea really how far/deep you guys were wanting to > go (hence me saying I wasn't for sure. I though I caught a while back you > guys mentioning launch on XBLA and I just got arcade in my head. Thanks for > the clarification E. > > With my new understanding of the game =), I am on board with all the > previously mentioned scenarious on abilities for jumping/armor, etc. Not > that I wasn't before, I was just slightly concerned about overthinking > simplistics. > > --- On *Wed, 6/24/09, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>* wrote: > > > From: eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> > Subject: [project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270 > To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 6:27 AM > > > i want to explicitely thank chris, alan and katie for offering the > counter points to my original thought, i really think having alternate > perspectives of things will allow us to fully explore elements of game > design like this and that it will ultimately deliver a better, more > intuitive and most importantly more FUN gaming experience. I do not mind > debating the points as I have done below because frankly, if I cannot defend > the game design philosophy then the system we're discussing is probably > broken and i need to work on it some more. besides that, it has been > my experience in designing the combat with nick that when debating ideas > like this it occasionally inspires great new ideas. I actually consider > this to be a vital part of "pre-testing" so please, I encourage you to > continue offering your insights and perspectives! > To give you a specific example, your idea about armor making you > slower and jump shorter will generally make players avoid doing that > in any instance they can. In action based games, skilled players will > go towards what is as fast and damaging as possible, and will avoid > things like that on purpose. > - this is by design, we want to encourage people who are exploring to use > lighter armor, it makes no sense to go on a journey into a mysterious temple > that is bound to have traps, puzzles, etc. in full plate armor. We want > that style of armor to be reserved for people who accept the penalty of > speed/jumping for the enhanced ability to take hits without getting damage. > this is a player choice. > Also, having injuries slow you down will make players feel like they > can't be damaged. For things like this you want to flip the tables, > and instead create armor that gives players more speed, but they take > more damage. It might seem like a small thing, but in the eyes of a > player it can make a huge difference in gameplay. > - also by design. We want players to feel like there are concequences to > being injured and it should be avoided as much as possible. There are > penalties for being injured or dying - that is a major part of the combat > design here. We are trying to break away from the constant > healing/ressurection that has been the common thread in most rpgs. we're > trying to get away from the attrition system. more info on this below > Basically ask yourself if you would play the game and have fun doing > the things you imagine. > - one of my favorite gaming experiences is america's army, and what makes > it so great and so immersive is that you are constantly in fear of your life > so there is actual tension on the battle field, its not like tf2 where you > run out, spam attacks and if you get killed, oh well, respawn. I love the > idea of players figuring out the best strategies to stay alive and learning > tactics and skills to do it. yes, it is a challenge - but that is what makes > it so great! Another game I love, as alan pointed out, is gemstone. > Gemstone was ruthless with one shot kills, getting your leg chopped off and > not being able to climb stuff, etc. like there's areas in the game you have > to take your armor off and be athletic enough to jump in order to make it > over there. staying alive is a major part of that game and everytime you > got hit, you would bleed and feel the effects of it. as a player you had to > learn to adapt your skills and player style to prevent yourself from getting > damaged as much as possible. this is a key element to the game design we > are trying to go with. so to answer your question - yes, i think it'd be > fun :P > > Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me when I play arcade-ish style > games like I the ones I think (if I understand correctly) that we are trying > to make, I think Chris has got a really good point. I like to take the > easiest route possible to get to the next step. Not that we should flake on > stuff. But we should make sure to not scrutinize/overthink things too much > if that makes sense. > - this is an rpg, not an arcade game! :P the emphasis is on exploration, > not just going as quickly as you can to get to the next level (although you > can if you so choose). what makes rpg's (and adventure games) fun for me is > finding all the little secrets that are hidden all over the world. also, > everyone is acting like 5 settings is so complex, really the first one is > only for special case scenarios and isn't meant to be used during actual > gameplay, and the 5th one is really only to serve as a special thing for use > like spells, flying, etc. there are only 3 main ones, a weak jump for > heavily armored players, a normal one for most people, and a long jump for > people who choose to sacrifice armor for speed and manueverability > I'd bet this jump level thing would more or less be invisible / automatic > to the player. Like when you were heavier you just dont jump as high or as > far. The player might not know there are 5 levels of jumping ability, they > might just realize "hey when i take off my armor i can make that jump to > that cave i couldnt get to before" (and of course maybe an NPC tips you off > to that fact). Or there are boots that have the description of "wear to be > able to jump higher" > -right, this is all an under the hood system. its funny because when i > write stories, etc. i try to keep things as close to the vest because i like > the reader to be surprised, i like keeping a mystery and something for them > to discover for themselves. this is also true in my game design philosophy, > give players a ton of neat stuff they can find out for themselves if they > want to... the irony is, as a team we're ALL under the hood so i have to > express all the hidden things to you guys so it can get made/discussed, but > then everyone is like "oh that is overly complicated there's no reason for > that!" without putting themselves in the shoes of the player who doesn't > even know the system exists and that its just there for them to discover if > they are curious and interested. > 5 different jumps will matter only as much as we design the game for > them to matter. In Diablo 2, the barb jump skill only let you cross > certain terrain that wasn't walkable, so having so many different jump > lengths was easily solved - just make the pits larger. If we can find > an easy solution in our game - an equivalent to "just making the pits > larger" - then we can add as many jumps as we want, and even make them > scale into flying! > I recently learned how to do the shinespark tricks in Metroid > Redesign, and if we could make our jumps in the game require a skill > curve somehow, that would reward the player for the ability to jump > higher... almost like how in 3d Mario games, you have to jump right as > you hit the ground again, within a certain amount of time, so you can > do the triple jump. > -i actually view it as a really simple system that allows for a lot of neat > versatility in game design and player strategy... something that allows for > more skill based movement if people are interested because i know some crazy > people (like nick) enjoy finding crazy challenges and trying to exploit > gameplay tools to get into areas, etc. i think that is fun and great and > should be part of our design. i picked 5 as the number so there would be > differences between teh playing styles while keeping things we needed to > design/test for to the minimum. > > okay so lets get down to brass tacks here (how much for the monkey?) (3 > adunai points to whoever gets the reference) > IMO we have 2 options: > a) 2 jump system - 1 for armor too heavy for you (basically, non-jumping) > and 1 for normal. > pros: easier to design for, easier to test for, no need to think about > armor choices for the player beyond "is it too heavy?" > cons: less versatile, no differences between wearing light/heavy/medium > armor for adventurers, no hidden areas only accessible by people who invest > and discover ways to jump farther. > b) 5 jump system - as illustrated above > pros: more for the player to discover, another "tool" in our tool box, > gives extra strengths/weaknesses when picking armor and character style > cons: harder to design/test, may baffle some characters. > now obviously i am biased towards B (the 5 jump system) so my pitch for it > is, it'll be simpler in practice for the player/designer than it may seem to > you right now, it's important for game balance between heavy/light armor, > players can really just make sure they are at level 3 (normal) and they will > be able to get through the entire game without worrying about the difference > in jump so i think there is zero bafflement chance, and it gives us another > neat tool for desiging exploration and hidden stuff in the game. > > I am definitely open-minded and can be convinced to go with A) - so lets > open it up to the forum and take a little poll and if you want to post > comments/thoughts/ideas - then it'll give us more information to make a good > and intelligent decision. > :) > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:55 AM, eric drewes > <figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx> > > wrote: > >> i didnt have time to read everythign yet but basically here is my take... >> level 1 is basically a "your character is broken level" and doesnt need to >> be designed for, its basically a penalty thing we can use. it is the >> extreme >> >> level 2 is needed to differentiate heavy armor from light armor >> >> level 3 is what we will design for, it is "normal" >> >> level 4 is to sepparate quick characters with ultra light armor from >> people wearing normal armor >> >> level 5 is a special case scenario type of thing >> >> we're basically just designing the game for level 3, with maybe a small >> amount of special case scenario areas for level 4/5 (like under 2-3 per >> chapter) >> >> i really don't think that it is overly complicated at all and this will be >> a SUBTLE thing, i.e. again, most of the things like this are only designed >> for people who want the bonus, but dont have to have it >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Alan Wolfe >> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> >> > wrote: >> >>> yeah actually thats a good point, i remember playin zelda and you see >>> objects which are obviously repeated (ie black rocks in link to the past, or >>> the docks in zelda 1 etc) and knowing "there is something up with those" but >>> you dont know til you have the item. I forgot about that, that was kinda >>> fun gameplay :P >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Chris Riccobono >>> <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> Yeah, that's part of the fun of Zelda and Metroid style games... getting >>>> those items that make you able to do things you didn't predict were >>>> possible, so then the player wonders what cool thing is gonna come out next >>>> :) >>>> That's a pretty cool idea for introducing game mechanics.. the player >>>> doesn't know about them at all in the game until they actually get the item >>>> for it. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Alan Wolfe >>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> yeah totally i agree with you. >>>>> >>>>> we were talkin about this before, we were saying having lots of >>>>> optional things to discover in a game makes it seem bigger because we >>>>> don't >>>>> advertise what the "edges" are. >>>>> >>>>> so yeah totally, if we advertise there are 5 jump levels it ruins the >>>>> magic, but if the player discovers "wtf i jump higher now?" they might try >>>>> to see just how high they can jump. Maybe they get to level 4 and never >>>>> cap >>>>> out at level 5, as far as they know the sky is the limit even though they >>>>> are almost at the cieling hehe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Chris Riccobono >>>>> <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Also, about the player not knowing there will be 5 jump levels, that >>>>>> would trigger the "yay I discovered something" emotion. It's really >>>>>> fun to learn how to do something to reach new places, you know? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Chris >>>>>> Riccobono<crysalim@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> > I do believe simplicity brings about the most fun when done >>>>>> correctly! >>>>>> > I think part of the fun of a game is learning how to use the >>>>>> system, >>>>>> > too, so when you can learn it very easy at first, you are open to >>>>>> > learning new mechanics as things go on. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Alan >>>>>> > Wolfe<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >> You deffinately have a good point. Our game isn't arcadey per se >>>>>> but it is >>>>>> >> a game where you can go deeper if you want but don't have to. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Like there will be lots to explore but it's all optional (Eric >>>>>> correct me if >>>>>> >> im wrong lol). >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> I'd bet this jump level thing would more or less be invisible / >>>>>> automatic to >>>>>> >> the player. Like when you were heavier you just dont jump as high >>>>>> or as >>>>>> >> far. The player might not know there are 5 levels of jumping >>>>>> ability, they >>>>>> >> might just realize "hey when i take off my armor i can make that >>>>>> jump to >>>>>> >> that cave i couldnt get to before" (and of course maybe an NPC tips >>>>>> you off >>>>>> >> to that fact). Or there are boots that have the description of >>>>>> "wear to be >>>>>> >> able to jump higher" >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> But yeah there is deffinate wisdom to keeping it simple, especially >>>>>> keeping >>>>>> >> the end result the player sees simple. >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> Someone should be able to pick up the game and be able to play >>>>>> without >>>>>> >> having to read some huge manual :P >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> the old saying "easy to learn difficult to master" yadda yadda >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:13 PM, katie cook >>>>>> >> <ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me when I play >>>>>> arcade-ish style >>>>>> >>> games like I the ones I think (if I understand correctly) that we >>>>>> are trying >>>>>> >>> to make, I think Chris has got a really good point. I like to take >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>> easiest route possible to get to the next step. Not that we should >>>>>> flake on >>>>>> >>> stuff. But we should make sure to not scrutinize/overthink things >>>>>> too much >>>>>> >>> if that makes sense. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> I like the opportunity to get a little bit deeper with a game if I >>>>>> choose >>>>>> >>> to at the time, but appreciate when I don't have to. Usually >>>>>> arcades games >>>>>> >>> tend to be shorter in hours played. When I play a short game, I >>>>>> don't wanna >>>>>> >>> have to invest a lot of time and deal with frivilous features. The >>>>>> easier >>>>>> >>> the game the funner it is for me (for arcade/short games. I hope >>>>>> this makes >>>>>> >>> sense. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Chris Riccobono >>>>>> >>> <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> From: Chris Riccobono >>>>>> >>> <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>> Subject: [project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270 >>>>>> >>> To: >>>>>> >>> project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> >>> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 9:46 PM >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> 5 different jump levels is going to complicate things a bit more >>>>>> than >>>>>> >>> we want. Try to keep in mind that the ideal is to make the game >>>>>> more >>>>>> >>> fun. Ask yourself, will 5 different jumps enhance the game enough >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>> warrant the amount of coding, designing, and bug testing they will >>>>>> >>> require? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> To reiterate what I tried to stress early on, we want the game to >>>>>> be >>>>>> >>> as fun as possible, as simply as possible. Having a complex game >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>> great if it enhances the experience, but if it doesn't, it becomes >>>>>> a >>>>>> >>> hinderance - just another game, in other words. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> To give you a specific example, your idea about armor making you >>>>>> >>> slower and jump shorter will generally make players avoid doing >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>> in any instance they can. In action based games, skilled players >>>>>> will >>>>>> >>> go towards what is as fast and damaging as possible, and will >>>>>> avoid >>>>>> >>> things like that on purpose. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Also, having injuries slow you down will make players feel like >>>>>> they >>>>>> >>> can't be damaged. For things like this you want to flip the >>>>>> tables, >>>>>> >>> and instead create armor that gives players more speed, but they >>>>>> take >>>>>> >>> more damage. It might seem like a small thing, but in the eyes of >>>>>> a >>>>>> >>> player it can make a huge difference in gameplay. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> Basically ask yourself if you would play the game and have fun >>>>>> doing >>>>>> >>> the things you imagine. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Alan >>>>>> >>> Wolfe<alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> > you know the kind of cool thing about this too >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > we could actually make situations that you couldn't escape from, >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>> > have >>>>>> >>> > things like pits that when you fall into them you die instantly >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>> > return >>>>>> >>> > to the void. >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > those are really mean (literally!) features but if we use them >>>>>> sparingly >>>>>> >>> > or >>>>>> >>> > in some kind of "i told you not to look in the box" situations >>>>>> that >>>>>> >>> > could be >>>>>> >>> > actually pretty funny. >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > im not sure if you are down with it, but it would bring a >>>>>> feeling of >>>>>> >>> > mortality :P >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > ps i'll add the previous ideas to the wiki once i get home if no >>>>>> one >>>>>> >>> > else >>>>>> >>> > has by then. I dont mind but just can't right now :P >>>>>> >>> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:44 PM, eric drewes >>>>>> >>> > <figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >> >>>>>> >>> >> yes - harsh but like i said, its an emergency only option to be >>>>>> as a >>>>>> >>> >> last >>>>>> >>> >> resort... i think any other way of doing it will allow too many >>>>>> holes >>>>>> >>> >> for >>>>>> >>> >> exploits (such as exp or item farming, etc) >>>>>> >>> >> >>>>>> >>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:43 PM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>> >> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>> so would you lose all exp, gold and items gained then? >>>>>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:41 PM, eric drewes < >>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>> >>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>> yeah i think that is what we';ll do, you can recall to the >>>>>> void at >>>>>> >>> >>>> any >>>>>> >>> >>>> time but it effectively just restores a saved game so you >>>>>> gain no >>>>>> >>> >>>> benefit to >>>>>> >>> >>>> it. We'll make this sort of a last ditch option, so we'll >>>>>> try to >>>>>> >>> >>>> design it >>>>>> >>> >>>> so people never have to use it under normal circumstances >>>>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>> no, im just here to poke holes in your ideas <g> >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>> jk but no im not sure... other than perhaps the player can >>>>>> return to >>>>>> >>> >>>>> the void at any time, and the cost is that you've lost all >>>>>> the time >>>>>> >>> >>>>> you've >>>>>> >>> >>>>> taken to progress to where you are (ie you have to walk >>>>>> back) >>>>>> >>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:38 PM, eric drewes < >>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wait i take that back, i'll have to think of a real >>>>>> solution. any >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> ideas? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> ok >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> is recall always going to be available? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:35 PM, eric drewes < >>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> recall >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Alan Wolfe >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> ok sounds good. the lax attitude and not needing >>>>>> perfection >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> make it alot easier to test and build. We'll just have >>>>>> to make >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> sure and >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> keep that in mind when designing things. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> actually i think we will probably still have to do a lot >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> testing >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> with the various jumps to make sure people can't get >>>>>> somewhere >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> they arent >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> meant to be that they cant get out of - ie i can enter >>>>>> this >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> level 3 jump >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> area but i can't escape. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> what's your thoughts on that situation? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:29 PM, eric drewes < >>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> well 2 things... >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> 1 - i am comfortable with the testing, i think it'll >>>>>> add a lot >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> the game - what do you guys think? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> 2 - alan i would really say we'd only need to test for >>>>>> 2 things >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> the ability for level 2 to get past areas that have no >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> non-jumping route >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> through and to make sure tier 5 people can't exploit >>>>>> anything >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> we don't want >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> them too... i would say if a tier 3 person can find a >>>>>> way to >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> get over >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> something designed as a secret for level 4 people, then >>>>>> that is >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> ok w/ me, >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> and likewise with level 4 getting to level 5 areas. if >>>>>> they >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> can find a way >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> to overcome the handicap, i dont want to stop them :) >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Alan Wolfe >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> and of course another option is we just design it >>>>>> where fine >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> tuned details like that aren't important >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> like if you can jump it instead of having to get a >>>>>> rope and >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> climb >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> up, who cares! >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> but shrug just wanted to point out this aspect of the >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> solution! >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Alan Wolfe >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea. It deffinately makes thigns more >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> exploration >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> based since we could put places that you can't get to >>>>>> while >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> starting out >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This isn't a deal breaker but i want to point out >>>>>> this will >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> increase testing and designing time: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to be played with the highest >>>>>> jump level >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure they cant exploit anything they shouldn't >>>>>> be able >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to played with the lowest jump >>>>>> level to >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure the minimum we want passable is passable >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * for maps which have a specific jump requirement >>>>>> areas (ie >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> level 3 lets you get to this area) we'll have to play >>>>>> with >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that level as >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> well as the next level down to make sure the one >>>>>> below can't >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> get up too. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:11 PM, eric drewes >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what do you guys think of that scale? that way we >>>>>> dont have >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> guess when we design and we have a baseline standard >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:58 PM, eric drewes >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=figarus@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a voice spoke from the mountain tops, "and let >>>>>> it be >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spoken, there shall be 5 different tiers of >>>>>> jumping >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability, one for hardly >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any jump at all, the next for between the current >>>>>> jump and >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the previous >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels not-really-a-jump, the third is what is >>>>>> there now, >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the fourth for a >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump equal to 1.5x as high/far as the 3rd and a >>>>>> fifth that >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is triple the >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normal jump - this will be reserved for special >>>>>> facet, >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> item boosts or a max >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 100 quickness bonus. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically it is like this: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 1) barely a jump at all, this will be for >>>>>> incredibly >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fat characters (w/ the fat facet) people with >>>>>> super heavy >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor that they >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aren't strong enough to wear, incredibly injured >>>>>> people, >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people with snake >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> torsos, etc :-P >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 2) this is what people wearing plate/heavy >>>>>> chain >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor, >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or have relatively strong long injuries, etc. etc. >>>>>> will >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 3) most characters will have this jump, >>>>>> traps, etc. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be designed with this as the minimum - >>>>>> though >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically we want it to >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a challenge for level 3 people. some areas can >>>>>> be >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> designed so it's >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible without level 4 though, but nothing >>>>>> vital to >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passing the map - >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, traps/jump areas that aren't accessible >>>>>> except >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through jumping should >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use level 2 as a minimum. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 4) super athletic character with light or no >>>>>> armor >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have this, they can reach special areas the other >>>>>> 3 levels >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't, jump >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> puzzles should be easier for level 4 >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 5) these characters are magically imbued or >>>>>> have >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> super >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humanly agility, maybe they have little wings, >>>>>> etc. by >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passable traps, areas >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that can only be reached via long distance travel, >>>>>> etc >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these characters have >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a big advantage on all jumping matters. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Kent Petersen >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, that sounds awful. At least we have learned >>>>>> these >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lessons and now know how to prevent them >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Alan Wolfe >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> btw line rider had the same issues tee hee >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In line rider, people were exploiting a simple >>>>>> physics >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation to do tricks like gravity wells and >>>>>> nose >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grinds and other stuff. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we made the commercial version of the game >>>>>> we had >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure all the tricks were still possible and >>>>>> we >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brought in tech dawg to >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> play it and make sure everything was still >>>>>> kosher. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the parts that sucked - whenever we optomized >>>>>> something >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game it would break all existing test maps >>>>>> we had >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made so we had to wait >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> til the very end of the game to make the puzzle >>>>>> maps. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, since the DS, Wii and PC all have >>>>>> different >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> floating >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point math chips in them (and ds had diff code), >>>>>> maps >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't work the same >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on all the different platforms so we had to keep >>>>>> sharing >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be on the same >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform it was created on. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Alan Wolfe >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its ok man ::shakes you:: the wars over, nixon >>>>>> is outa >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> office now >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Kent Petersen >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Kent is having megaman flashbacks* >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Alan Wolfe >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indeed! I'm going to re-iterate what you >>>>>> said Kent >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so people understand the importance >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we should figure out how high / far we want >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be able to jump and how strong gravity >>>>>> should be >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muey importante~! >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> once we decide we can't change without having >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and rebalance any existing physics dependant >>>>>> maps (ie >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill jumps, gaps that >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the player should or should not be able to >>>>>> jump over >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc) which is a total >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pain and could really be really really >>>>>> destructive to >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our game having to >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild and rebalance a whole bunch of crap >>>>>> later. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, lookin at you Eric, we should talk about >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finalizing. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything specifically you for sure >>>>>> want the >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player to be able to do? IE jump across a >>>>>> certain >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distance, jump over a >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain hight object etc >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Kent >>>>>> Petersen >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What did you want to do for the first trap? >>>>>> I >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagined >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that there would be 5 or so different >>>>>> looking tiles. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there would be one >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct kind of tile (not the diamond). Then >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player would have to jump >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about through the tiles to the correct ones. >>>>>> I >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured it would work >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similarly to the ones that were on kenttest. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's your thoughts on that? >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before you get to into designing the temple >>>>>> I would >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highly suggest that we nail down player >>>>>> control and >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jumping physics. Let me >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warn you from experience, if we change how >>>>>> any of >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that works your temple >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will become obsolete. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Kent >>>>>> Petersen >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Been really busy today and will probably be >>>>>> busy >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next couple days. I would suggest leaving >>>>>> the trap >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas open for now. If >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are willing to push on anyway and have >>>>>> specific >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions, send em my >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way and I will be happy to help out when I >>>>>> get a >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Alan Wolfe >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man that's awesome >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Apache >>>>>> User >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dhapache@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<http://us.mc361.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=dhapache@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> User:rorac >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: Expanded a little on templemap, >>>>>> added >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> template code as per Kent's advisement. >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Need a sign (next room is diamond path). >>>>>> Kent, I >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will need your help to help build that >>>>>> part and >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> begin putting traps in the >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hallway (first right = first trap area). >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Files Changed> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> U Scripts/Maps/templemap.lua >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Scripts/Maps/templemap_geometry.lua >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >> ;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >> >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> > >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > >