Eric's superior logic and reasoning have convinced me. That man is a preacher! On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:10 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > we have Nick on one end arguing for a completely 1-100 tier variable for > jumping, we have chris arguing for no tiers and just one jump system so it > is easier for the player to know what is going on, i believe the tier system > is a good hybrid that allows the ease of use and intuitiveness that asdf is > advocating while still giving range and versatility that nick is advocating. > > > as far as people taking off armor to go through traps being tedious, i have > 3 thoughts on this: > > 1) lol... so exploiting the system is tedious... good! > > 2) we can figure out a way to make the item system work to make swapping > armor to exploit traps have a major downside. i have an idea for this in > mind but havent' fully explained it yet > > 3) no one is forcing anyone to use heavy armor while exploring, if they > want to do that, they have to realize there are concequences to that > decision. I see no problem with that. > > > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> For example, I just beat Redesign to check my item%, time is over 19 hours >> played. The creator of the game knows all the tricks/cheats, he can exploit >> and beat the game in 1:12. It took me that long to get the bombs. :\ >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >> >>> ok great, just makin sure... from the tech and QA pov, that solves a ton >>> of issues so good. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>> >>>> that would be a pallpark figure and we wouldnt care if the player found >>>> a way in (ie hump the wall while jumping or something) before they had >>>> those >>>> exact stats right? >>>> >>>> Absolutely right. If a player is intuitive enough to find another way, >>>> they should be rewarded for their efforts. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>> >>>>> "Exploratory areas could require a 100 quickness stat + facet bonuses >>>>> + items to reach certain areas (in a couple extreme cases)." >>>>> >>>>> that would be a pallpark figure and we wouldnt care if the player found >>>>> a way in (ie hump the wall while jumping or something) before they had >>>>> those >>>>> exact stats right? >>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Nick Klotz >>>>> <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My proposal of an analog system for jumping. >>>>>> >>>>>> "There is no clear tier for us to design for" >>>>>> >>>>>> Create one. >>>>>> >>>>>> I firmly believe this will not be an issue at all. All players start >>>>>> with a base jump of 10 (1 meter), increasing quickness stat, finding >>>>>> facets, >>>>>> and special items will increase jumping ability. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Quickness could as an example add 2 for every 5 points invested, >>>>>> increasing the Jump to 30 at 50 points, and a Jump of 50 at 100 >>>>>> quickness. >>>>>> With further benefits again, for facets and special items. This may seem >>>>>> a >>>>>> bit much but remember there are penalties for armor, injury, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> As a TIER system, areas could be made to urge a player to be a certain >>>>>> level to reach diffrent areas. No standard area where you have to make a >>>>>> jump would require a huge quickness stat or facet bonuses, so the jumps >>>>>> wouldn't be that far, but would require more skill as a player to land, >>>>>> assume an average of 60 quickness by near the end of the game, and that's >>>>>> your tier. >>>>>> >>>>>> Exploratory areas could require a 100 quickness stat + facet bonuses + >>>>>> items to reach certain areas (in a couple extreme cases). >>>>>> >>>>>> Basically, you settle for 1 meter - 3 meter jumps to beat the game, >>>>>> and use the rest as exploration/bonuses. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:34 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> ok and just another note... like nick and kent both said "we would >>>>>>> give up using heavy armor for the extra speed and manueverability" well >>>>>>> yeah- exactly, that is the point :) i want you to be able to make that >>>>>>> decision on your own and not have it thrust upon you. I would make the >>>>>>> same >>>>>>> decision! having those kinds of options for customization is a major >>>>>>> part >>>>>>> of the design philosophy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:29 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> well the jump differences i gave were just examples that could be >>>>>>>> tweaked, i.e. the athletic jump could be 2x or 3x whatever we decided >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> give them over the normal. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> heavier armor - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> well let me start by saying the design is meant to keep most people >>>>>>>> from using heavier armor, if you're exploring, you shouldnt be wearing >>>>>>>> full >>>>>>>> plate or heavy chain armor, it is unrealistic. I am a fan of medium and >>>>>>>> light armors being the de facto standard but giving people who WANT >>>>>>>> heavy >>>>>>>> armor to use it if they desire. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Heavy armor would absorb damage from attacks, the main advantage to >>>>>>>> heavy armor being that it protects better in combat. People can decide >>>>>>>> whether to trade manueverability for the extra protection if they >>>>>>>> want, or >>>>>>>> maybe they just wear heavy armor when going up against a particular >>>>>>>> boss or >>>>>>>> maybe before going into a big battle with multiple foes and the extra >>>>>>>> protection is worth the loss in dodging, etc.. basically, heavy armor >>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>> special case scenario and not something most characters will want to >>>>>>>> wear >>>>>>>> most of the time, especially in exploration. The design is meant to >>>>>>>> LEAD >>>>>>>> people to discover this on their own, so we're not forcing them to not >>>>>>>> wear >>>>>>>> heavy armor all the time but we're making it beneficial for them not >>>>>>>> to. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> as far as removing armor, going through a trap, then putting it back >>>>>>>> on... well like i said, i don't encourage players to use heavy armor >>>>>>>> during >>>>>>>> exploration, if they want to go that route they can, but no one is >>>>>>>> forcing >>>>>>>> them to. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Also remember that heavier armor could be something you'd equip to >>>>>>>> party members rather than the hero if you wanted a pure tank in your >>>>>>>> group, >>>>>>>> and that would not affect manuevering. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Kent Petersen >>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was thinking there should be another tier for exploration's sake. >>>>>>>>> In your example you mentioned athletic being 1.5x jump and magical >>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>> 3.0x jump. I was thinking there should be a middle ground to create >>>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>> levels of advanced areas you can reach. If we design the game >>>>>>>>> properly this >>>>>>>>> can be avoided and not an issue. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Heavier armor - What about out running enemies? In the cave our >>>>>>>>> enemies chase down the player. If the player is wearing heavier armor >>>>>>>>> he is >>>>>>>>> just kinda fucked by comparison to someone wearing lighter armor and >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> better at avoiding enemies. A trade off would be taking less damage in >>>>>>>>> combat but the player will most likely fight slower as well. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What are the pros and cons to heavier armor? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Are there over-world benefits for wearing heavier? Such as >>>>>>>>>> resistance to different traps? If no, what's to say a player won't >>>>>>>>>> remove >>>>>>>>>> armor for doing maneuvers, then putting it back on to fight an >>>>>>>>>> enemy; such a >>>>>>>>>> case could get tedious fairly quickly. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:10 AM, eric drewes >>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> just a quick clarification: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 1) can't jump - only used to penalize people who wear armor they >>>>>>>>>>> aren't strong enough for or for certain other special case scenarios >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2) small jumping ability, used for injured players and players >>>>>>>>>>> using plate armor >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 3) normal - the baseline we design for >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 4) extra-ordinary - this is for super athletic characters (or >>>>>>>>>>> maybe special boots) that let you jump extra far, gives access to >>>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>>> special areas. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 5) magically imbued - this is very rare special case scenario, i >>>>>>>>>>> actually think this one is possibly superfluous and could probably >>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> eliminated without losing much. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the reasons for this is that people can understand their >>>>>>>>>>> capabilities and limitations easily, there's less variables for >>>>>>>>>>> them to >>>>>>>>>>> understand and for us to design for, while still allowing a >>>>>>>>>>> versatile system >>>>>>>>>>> that benefits players who go with lighter armor or find special >>>>>>>>>>> items that >>>>>>>>>>> let them jump farther, etc. etc. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:06 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "I like Eric's system but I feel like there should be more than >>>>>>>>>>>> 5 tiers. I was writing out a big counter point but in the end I >>>>>>>>>>>> convinced >>>>>>>>>>>> myself that I like this method best. I think there should be a >>>>>>>>>>>> tier between >>>>>>>>>>>> 4 and 5. A tier where the player is better than most but not >>>>>>>>>>>> magically >>>>>>>>>>>> imbued." >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> well that was sort of the purpose for tier 4, to give something >>>>>>>>>>>> between a normal person and someone who is magically imbued. that >>>>>>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>>>>>> there's a clear distinction between normal and extraordinarily >>>>>>>>>>>> athletic >>>>>>>>>>>> characters... i personally think adding another tier between the >>>>>>>>>>>> two is ok >>>>>>>>>>>> but it creates another segment to design places for and i am not >>>>>>>>>>>> sure having >>>>>>>>>>>> 2 better than normal tiers is good bang for the buck... maybe some >>>>>>>>>>>> hypothetical examples would help clear up the issue? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Kent Petersen < >>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I like Eric's system but I feel like there should be more than >>>>>>>>>>>>> 5 tiers. I was writing out a big counter point but in the end I >>>>>>>>>>>>> convinced >>>>>>>>>>>>> myself that I like this method best. I think there should be a >>>>>>>>>>>>> tier between >>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 and 5. A tier where the player is better than most but not >>>>>>>>>>>>> magically >>>>>>>>>>>>> imbued. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> With the lax attitude of letting the player go where they want >>>>>>>>>>>>> we can design difficult to access dungeons to require a >>>>>>>>>>>>> reoccurring use of >>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever skill is needed. For example if you need level 5 jump to >>>>>>>>>>>>> access a >>>>>>>>>>>>> secret dungeon then the secret dungeon should have parts in it >>>>>>>>>>>>> that require >>>>>>>>>>>>> the level 5 jump. That way if a player does get in there they >>>>>>>>>>>>> will not be >>>>>>>>>>>>> able to finish it. If they somehow find a way to exploit the >>>>>>>>>>>>> system we could >>>>>>>>>>>>> reward them. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see any major problems with having multiple jump >>>>>>>>>>>>> levels. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:21 AM, eric drewes < >>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Jumping is a stat based on quickness, facets, skills, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor, injuries, and special scenario items/boosts/uses. As the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> player went >>>>>>>>>>>>>> along in the game, increased their stats, got facets, etc; their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump would increase marginally rather than "look I suddenly jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher". >>>>>>>>>>>>>> An analog system would allow for extreme versatility without >>>>>>>>>>>>>> having to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> measure out specific jump levels. Getting injuries could slow >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you down in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor/major degrees, rather than "will this injury drop me down >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>> level?" same goes for armor." >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the problem with this is... there's no clear tier for us to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> design for, which means we're aiming at a moving target and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's no clear >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "minimum" to design for, etc. All the problems chris brought up >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> magnified 10x when there's no tier system. I actually picked >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the tier >>>>>>>>>>>>>> system as a bridge between 1 jump level and a purely analogue >>>>>>>>>>>>>> system for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons i mentioned above. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Nick Klotz < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I like to mix things up a little, but try to keep an open >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind here! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No levels of jumping! That's right, none. You can jump, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jumping is a stat based on quickness, facets, skills, armor, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> injuries, and special scenario items/boosts/uses. As the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player went along >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the game, increased their stats, got facets, etc; their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would increase marginally rather than "look I suddenly jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher". An >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> analog system would allow for extreme versatility without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having to measure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out specific jump levels. Getting injuries could slow you down >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor/major degrees, rather than "will this injury drop me down >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level?" same goes for armor. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Re: Redux. Yeah, back in Gemstone3 I was a master of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system and for my level was point-by-point the toughest warrior >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the game. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gemstone4 changed the system and it became to fuzzy to learn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (nobody would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> release the exact system either), and I wasn't about to test >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warriors from 0 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to 30 for another year to try and figure it out. :\ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:27 AM, eric drewes < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i want to explicitely thank chris, alan and katie for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offering the counter points to my original thought, i really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think having >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate perspectives of things will allow us to fully >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explore elements of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game design like this and that it will ultimately deliver a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better, more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intuitive and most importantly more FUN gaming experience. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do not mind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debating the points as I have done below because frankly, if I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot defend >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game design philosophy then the system we're discussing is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> broken and i need to work on it some more. besides that, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my experience in designing the combat with nick that when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debating ideas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like this it occasionally inspires great new ideas. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually consider >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this to be a vital part of "pre-testing" so please, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> encourage you to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue offering your insights and perspectives! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To give you a specific example, your idea about armor making >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slower and jump shorter will generally make players avoid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in any instance they can. In action based games, skilled >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go towards what is as fast and damaging as possible, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will avoid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things like that on purpose. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - this is by design, we want to encourage people who are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exploring to use lighter armor, it makes no sense to go on a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> journey into a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mysterious temple that is bound to have traps, puzzles, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in full plate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor. We want that style of armor to be reserved for people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who accept the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> penalty of speed/jumping for the enhanced ability to take hits >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting damage. this is a player choice. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, having injuries slow you down will make players feel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't be damaged. For things like this you want to flip the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tables, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and instead create armor that gives players more speed, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they take >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more damage. It might seem like a small thing, but in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eyes of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player it can make a huge difference in gameplay. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - also by design. We want players to feel like there are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concequences to being injured and it should be avoided as much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as possible. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are penalties for being injured or dying - that is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major part of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combat design here. We are trying to break away from the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> healing/ressurection that has been the common thread in most >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rpgs. we're >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to get away from the attrition system. more info on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this below >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Basically ask yourself if you would play the game and have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the things you imagine. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - one of my favorite gaming experiences is america's army, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and what makes it so great and so immersive is that you are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constantly in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fear of your life so there is actual tension on the battle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> field, its not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like tf2 where you run out, spam attacks and if you get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> killed, oh well, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respawn. I love the idea of players figuring out the best >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strategies to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stay alive and learning tactics and skills to do it. yes, it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a challenge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - but that is what makes it so great! Another game I love, as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan pointed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out, is gemstone. Gemstone was ruthless with one shot kills, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leg chopped off and not being able to climb stuff, etc. like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's areas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the game you have to take your armor off and be athletic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in order to make it over there. staying alive is a major part >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of that game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and everytime you got hit, you would bleed and feel the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effects of it. as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player you had to learn to adapt your skills and player style >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to prevent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself from getting damaged as much as possible. this is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> key element to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game design we are trying to go with. so to answer your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question - yes, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i think it'd be fun :P >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me when I play >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arcade-ish style games like I the ones I think (if I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand correctly) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that we are trying to make, I think Chris has got a really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good point. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like to take the easiest route possible to get to the next >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> step. Not that we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should flake on stuff. But we should make sure to not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scrutinize/overthink >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things too much if that makes sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - this is an rpg, not an arcade game! :P the emphasis is on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exploration, not just going as quickly as you can to get to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next level >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (although you can if you so choose). what makes rpg's (and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adventure games) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun for me is finding all the little secrets that are hidden >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all over the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world. also, everyone is acting like 5 settings is so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complex, really the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first one is only for special case scenarios and isn't meant >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be used >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during actual gameplay, and the 5th one is really only to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> serve as a special >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing for use like spells, flying, etc. there are only 3 main >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, a weak >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump for heavily armored players, a normal one for most >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, and a long >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump for people who choose to sacrifice armor for speed and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manueverability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd bet this jump level thing would more or less be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> invisible / automatic to the player. Like when you were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heavier you just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont jump as high or as far. The player might not know there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are 5 levels >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of jumping ability, they might just realize "hey when i take >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off my armor i >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can make that jump to that cave i couldnt get to before" (and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe an NPC tips you off to that fact). Or there are boots >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that have the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> description of "wear to be able to jump higher" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -right, this is all an under the hood system. its funny >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because when i write stories, etc. i try to keep things as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> close to the vest >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because i like the reader to be surprised, i like keeping a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mystery and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something for them to discover for themselves. this is also >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true in my game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design philosophy, give players a ton of neat stuff they can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find out for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves if they want to... the irony is, as a team we're >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ALL under the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hood so i have to express all the hidden things to you guys so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it can get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made/discussed, but then everyone is like "oh that is overly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complicated >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's no reason for that!" without putting themselves in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shoes of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player who doesn't even know the system exists and that its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just there for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to discover if they are curious and interested. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5 different jumps will matter only as much as we design the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to matter. In Diablo 2, the barb jump skill only let >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you cross >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain terrain that wasn't walkable, so having so many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lengths was easily solved - just make the pits larger. If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we can find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an easy solution in our game - an equivalent to "just making >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the pits >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> larger" - then we can add as many jumps as we want, and even >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scale into flying! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I recently learned how to do the shinespark tricks in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metroid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Redesign, and if we could make our jumps in the game require >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a skill >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> curve somehow, that would reward the player for the ability >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher... almost like how in 3d Mario games, you have to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump right as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you hit the ground again, within a certain amount of time, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so you can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do the triple jump. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -i actually view it as a really simple system that allows >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lot of neat versatility in game design and player >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strategy... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that allows for more skill based movement if people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are interested >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because i know some crazy people (like nick) enjoy finding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crazy challenges >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and trying to exploit gameplay tools to get into areas, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i think that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is fun and great and should be part of our design. i picked 5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the number >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so there would be differences between teh playing styles while >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things we needed to design/test for to the minimum. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> okay so lets get down to brass tacks here (how much for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> monkey?) (3 adunai points to whoever gets the reference) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IMO we have 2 options: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) 2 jump system - 1 for armor too heavy for you (basically, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-jumping) and 1 for normal. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pros: easier to design for, easier to test for, no need to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think about armor choices for the player beyond "is it too >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heavy?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cons: less versatile, no differences between wearing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> light/heavy/medium armor for adventurers, no hidden areas only >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people who invest and discover ways to jump farther. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) 5 jump system - as illustrated above >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pros: more for the player to discover, another "tool" in our >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tool box, gives extra strengths/weaknesses when picking armor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and character >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> style >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cons: harder to design/test, may baffle some characters. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now obviously i am biased towards B (the 5 jump system) so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my pitch for it is, it'll be simpler in practice for the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player/designer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than it may seem to you right now, it's important for game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balance between >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heavy/light armor, players can really just make sure they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at level 3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (normal) and they will be able to get through the entire game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worrying about the difference in jump so i think there is zero >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bafflement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance, and it gives us another neat tool for desiging >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exploration and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden stuff in the game. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am definitely open-minded and can be convinced to go with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A) - so lets open it up to the forum and take a little poll >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and if you want >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to post comments/thoughts/ideas - then it'll give us more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make a good and intelligent decision. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:55 AM, eric drewes < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i didnt have time to read everythign yet but basically here >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is my take... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 1 is basically a "your character is broken level" and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesnt need to be designed for, its basically a penalty thing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we can use. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is the extreme >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 2 is needed to differentiate heavy armor from light >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 3 is what we will design for, it is "normal" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 4 is to sepparate quick characters with ultra light >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor from people wearing normal armor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 5 is a special case scenario type of thing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're basically just designing the game for level 3, with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe a small amount of special case scenario areas for level >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4/5 (like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under 2-3 per chapter) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i really don't think that it is overly complicated at all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and this will be a SUBTLE thing, i.e. again, most of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things like this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are only designed for people who want the bonus, but dont >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to have it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yeah actually thats a good point, i remember playin zelda >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you see objects which are obviously repeated (ie black >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rocks in link to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the past, or the docks in zelda 1 etc) and knowing "there is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with those" but you dont know til you have the item. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forgot about that, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that was kinda fun gameplay :P >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Chris Riccobono < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, that's part of the fun of Zelda and Metroid style >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> games... getting those items that make you able to do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things you didn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> predict were possible, so then the player wonders what cool >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing is gonna >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come out next :) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's a pretty cool idea for introducing game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mechanics.. the player doesn't know about them at all in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game until they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually get the item for it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yeah totally i agree with you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we were talkin about this before, we were saying having >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lots of optional things to discover in a game makes it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem bigger because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we don't advertise what the "edges" are. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so yeah totally, if we advertise there are 5 jump levels >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it ruins the magic, but if the player discovers "wtf i >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump higher now?" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they might try to see just how high they can jump. Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they get to level >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 and never cap out at level 5, as far as they know the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sky is the limit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even though they are almost at the cieling hehe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Chris Riccobono < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, about the player not knowing there will be 5 jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels, that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would trigger the "yay I discovered something" emotion. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun to learn how to do something to reach new places, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you know? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Chris Riccobono< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I do believe simplicity brings about the most fun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when done correctly! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I think part of the fun of a game is learning how to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use the system, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > too, so when you can learn it very easy at first, you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are open to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > learning new mechanics as things go on. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Alan Wolfe< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> You deffinately have a good point. Our game isn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arcadey per se but it is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> a game where you can go deeper if you want but don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> Like there will be lots to explore but it's all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> optional (Eric correct me if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> im wrong lol). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> I'd bet this jump level thing would more or less be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> invisible / automatic to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> the player. Like when you were heavier you just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont jump as high or as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> far. The player might not know there are 5 levels >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of jumping ability, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> might just realize "hey when i take off my armor i >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can make that jump to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> that cave i couldnt get to before" (and of course >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe an NPC tips you off >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> to that fact). Or there are boots that have the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> description of "wear to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> able to jump higher" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> But yeah there is deffinate wisdom to keeping it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple, especially keeping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> the end result the player sees simple. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> Someone should be able to pick up the game and be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to play without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> having to read some huge manual :P >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> the old saying "easy to learn difficult to master" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yadda yadda >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:13 PM, katie cook < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I play arcade-ish style >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> games like I the ones I think (if I understand >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly) that we are trying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to make, I think Chris has got a really good point. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I like to take the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> easiest route possible to get to the next step. Not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that we should flake on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> stuff. But we should make sure to not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scrutinize/overthink things too much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> if that makes sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> I like the opportunity to get a little bit deeper >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a game if I choose >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to at the time, but appreciate when I don't have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to. Usually arcades games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> tend to be shorter in hours played. When I play a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short game, I don't wanna >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> have to invest a lot of time and deal with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frivilous features. The easier >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the game the funner it is for me (for arcade/short >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> games. I hope this makes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> sense. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Chris Riccobono < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> From: Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Subject: [project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 270 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 9:46 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> 5 different jump levels is going to complicate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things a bit more than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> we want. Try to keep in mind that the ideal is to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make the game more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> fun. Ask yourself, will 5 different jumps enhance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game enough to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> warrant the amount of coding, designing, and bug >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> testing they will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> require? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To reiterate what I tried to stress early on, we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want the game to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> as fun as possible, as simply as possible. Having >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a complex game is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> great if it enhances the experience, but if it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't, it becomes a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> hinderance - just another game, in other words. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To give you a specific example, your idea about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor making you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> slower and jump shorter will generally make players >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> avoid doing that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> in any instance they can. In action based games, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skilled players will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> go towards what is as fast and damaging as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible, and will avoid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> things like that on purpose. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Also, having injuries slow you down will make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players feel like they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> can't be damaged. For things like this you want to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flip the tables, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> and instead create armor that gives players more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speed, but they take >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> more damage. It might seem like a small thing, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the eyes of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> player it can make a huge difference in gameplay. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Basically ask yourself if you would play the game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and have fun doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the things you imagine. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Alan Wolfe< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > you know the kind of cool thing about this too >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > we could actually make situations that you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't escape from, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > things like pits that when you fall into them you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> die instantly and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > return >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > to the void. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > those are really mean (literally!) features but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if we use them sparingly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > in some kind of "i told you not to look in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> box" situations that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > could be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > actually pretty funny. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > im not sure if you are down with it, but it would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bring a feeling of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > mortality :P >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > ps i'll add the previous ideas to the wiki once i >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get home if no one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > else >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > has by then. I dont mind but just can't right >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now :P >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:44 PM, eric drewes < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> yes - harsh but like i said, its an emergency >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only option to be as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> last >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> resort... i think any other way of doing it will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allow too many holes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> exploits (such as exp or item farming, etc) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:43 PM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> so would you lose all exp, gold and items >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gained then? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:41 PM, eric drewes < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> yeah i think that is what we';ll do, you can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recall to the void at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> time but it effectively just restores a saved >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game so you gain no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> benefit to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> it. We'll make this sort of a last ditch >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> option, so we'll try to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> design it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> so people never have to use it under normal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> no, im just here to poke holes in your ideas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <g> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> jk but no im not sure... other than perhaps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the player can return to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> the void at any time, and the cost is that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you've lost all the time >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> you've >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> taken to progress to where you are (ie you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to walk back) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:38 PM, eric drewes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wait i take that back, i'll have to think of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a real solution. any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> ideas? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Alan Wolfe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> ok >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> is recall always going to be available? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:35 PM, eric >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> recall >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wolfe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> ok sounds good. the lax attitude and not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needing perfection >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> make it alot easier to test and build. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We'll just have to make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> sure and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> keep that in mind when designing things. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> actually i think we will probably still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do a lot of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> testing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> with the various jumps to make sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people can't get somewhere >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> they arent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> meant to be that they cant get out of - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ie i can enter this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> level 3 jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> area but i can't escape. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> what's your thoughts on that situation? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:29 PM, eric >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> well 2 things... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> 1 - i am comfortable with the testing, i >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think it'll add a lot >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> the game - what do you guys think? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> 2 - alan i would really say we'd only >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to test for 2 things >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> the ability for level 2 to get past >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas that have no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> non-jumping route >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> through and to make sure tier 5 people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't exploit anything >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> we don't want >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> them too... i would say if a tier 3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person can find a way to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> get over >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> something designed as a secret for level >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 people, then that is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> ok w/ me, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> and likewise with level 4 getting to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 5 areas. if they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> can find a way >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> to overcome the handicap, i dont want to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stop them :) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wolfe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> and of course another option is we just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design it where fine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> tuned details like that aren't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> important >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> like if you can jump it instead of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having to get a rope and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> climb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> up, who cares! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> but shrug just wanted to point out this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aspect of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> solution! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wolfe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea. It deffinately makes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thigns more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> exploration >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> based since we could put places that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can't get to while >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> starting out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This isn't a deal breaker but i want >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to point out this will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> increase testing and designing time: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to be played >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the highest jump level >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure they cant exploit anything >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they shouldn't be able >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to played with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the lowest jump level to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure the minimum we want passable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is passable >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * for maps which have a specific jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirement areas (ie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> level 3 lets you get to this area) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll have to play with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that level as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> well as the next level down to make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure the one below can't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> get up too. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:11 PM, eric >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drewes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what do you guys think of that scale? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that way we dont have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> guess when we design and we have a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> baseline standard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:58 PM, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eric drewes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a voice spoke from the mountain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tops, "and let it be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spoken, there shall be 5 different >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tiers of jumping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability, one for hardly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any jump at all, the next for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between the current jump and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the previous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels not-really-a-jump, the third >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is what is there now, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the fourth for a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump equal to 1.5x as high/far as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 3rd and a fifth that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is triple the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normal jump - this will be reserved >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for special facet, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> item boosts or a max >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 100 quickness bonus. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically it is like this: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 1) barely a jump at all, this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be for incredibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fat characters (w/ the fat facet) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people with super heavy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor that they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aren't strong enough to wear, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly injured people, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people with snake >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> torsos, etc :-P >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 2) this is what people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wearing plate/heavy chain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or have relatively strong long >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> injuries, etc. etc. will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 3) most characters will have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this jump, traps, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be designed with this as the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minimum - though >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically we want it to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a challenge for level 3 people. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some areas can be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> designed so it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible without level 4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though, but nothing vital to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passing the map - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, traps/jump areas that aren't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible except >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through jumping should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use level 2 as a minimum. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 4) super athletic character >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with light or no armor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have this, they can reach special >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas the other 3 levels >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't, jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> puzzles should be easier for level >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 5) these characters are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> magically imbued or have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> super >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humanly agility, maybe they have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little wings, etc. by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passable traps, areas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that can only be reached via long >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distance travel, etc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these characters have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a big advantage on all jumping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:29 PM, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kent Petersen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, that sounds awful. At least >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we have learned these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lessons and now know how to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevent them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 4:26 PM, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alan Wolfe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> btw line rider had the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues tee hee >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In line rider, people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were exploiting a simple physics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation to do tricks like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gravity wells and nose >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grinds and other stuff. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we made the commercial >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of the game we had >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure all the tricks were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still possible and we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brought in tech dawg to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> play it and make sure everything >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was still kosher. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the parts that sucked - whenever >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we optomized something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game it would break all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existing test maps we had >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made so we had to wait >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> til the very end of the game to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make the puzzle maps. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, since the DS, Wii and PC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all have different >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> floating >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point math chips in them (and ds >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had diff code), maps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't work the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on all the different platforms so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we had to keep sharing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be on the same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform it was created on. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:50 PM, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alan Wolfe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its ok man ::shakes you:: the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wars over, nixon is outa >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> office now >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:48 PM, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kent Petersen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Kent is having megaman >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbacks* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:47 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PM, Alan Wolfe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indeed! I'm going to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-iterate what you said Kent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so people understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> importance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we should figure out how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high / far we want the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be able to jump and how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strong gravity should be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muey importante~! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> once we decide we can't change >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without having to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and rebalance any existing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> physics dependant maps (ie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill jumps, gaps that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the player should or should >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not be able to jump over >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc) which is a total >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pain and could really be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really really destructive to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our game having to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild and rebalance a whole >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bunch of crap later. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, lookin at you Eric, we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should talk about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finalizing. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything specifically >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you for sure want the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player to be able to do? IE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump across a certain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distance, jump over a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain hight object etc >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:31 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PM, Kent Petersen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What did you want to do for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the first trap? I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that there would be 5 or so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different looking tiles. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there would be one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct kind of tile (not the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diamond). Then the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player would have to jump >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about through the tiles to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the correct ones. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured it would work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similarly to the ones that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were on kenttest. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's your thoughts on that? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before you get to into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> designing the temple I would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highly suggest that we nail >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down player control and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jumping physics. Let me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warn you from experience, if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we change how any of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that works your temple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will become obsolete. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:25 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PM, Kent Petersen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Been really busy today and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will probably be busy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next couple days. I would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggest leaving the trap >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas open for now. If >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are willing to push on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway and have specific >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions, send em my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way and I will be happy to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> help out when I get a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:23 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PM, Alan Wolfe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man that's awesome >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2:16 PM, Apache User >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dhapache@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> User:rorac >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: Expanded a little >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on templemap, added >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> template code as per >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kent's advisement. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Need a sign (next room is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diamond path). Kent, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will need your help to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> help build that part and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> begin putting traps in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hallway (first right = >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first trap area). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Files Changed> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> U >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scripts/Maps/templemap.lua >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scripts/Maps/templemap_geometry.lua >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> ;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >