[project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update 270
- From: Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:21:23 -0500
Eric's superior logic and reasoning have convinced me. That man is a
preacher!
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:10 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> we have Nick on one end arguing for a completely 1-100 tier variable for
> jumping, we have chris arguing for no tiers and just one jump system so it
> is easier for the player to know what is going on, i believe the tier system
> is a good hybrid that allows the ease of use and intuitiveness that asdf is
> advocating while still giving range and versatility that nick is advocating.
>
>
> as far as people taking off armor to go through traps being tedious, i have
> 3 thoughts on this:
>
> 1) lol... so exploiting the system is tedious... good!
>
> 2) we can figure out a way to make the item system work to make swapping
> armor to exploit traps have a major downside. i have an idea for this in
> mind but havent' fully explained it yet
>
> 3) no one is forcing anyone to use heavy armor while exploring, if they
> want to do that, they have to realize there are concequences to that
> decision. I see no problem with that.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> For example, I just beat Redesign to check my item%, time is over 19 hours
>> played. The creator of the game knows all the tricks/cheats, he can exploit
>> and beat the game in 1:12. It took me that long to get the bombs. :\
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>
>>> ok great, just makin sure... from the tech and QA pov, that solves a ton
>>> of issues so good.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> that would be a pallpark figure and we wouldnt care if the player found
>>>> a way in (ie hump the wall while jumping or something) before they had
>>>> those
>>>> exact stats right?
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely right. If a player is intuitive enough to find another way,
>>>> they should be rewarded for their efforts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:52 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Exploratory areas could require a 100 quickness stat + facet bonuses
>>>>> + items to reach certain areas (in a couple extreme cases)."
>>>>>
>>>>> that would be a pallpark figure and we wouldnt care if the player found
>>>>> a way in (ie hump the wall while jumping or something) before they had
>>>>> those
>>>>> exact stats right?
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Nick Klotz
>>>>> <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My proposal of an analog system for jumping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "There is no clear tier for us to design for"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Create one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I firmly believe this will not be an issue at all. All players start
>>>>>> with a base jump of 10 (1 meter), increasing quickness stat, finding
>>>>>> facets,
>>>>>> and special items will increase jumping ability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Quickness could as an example add 2 for every 5 points invested,
>>>>>> increasing the Jump to 30 at 50 points, and a Jump of 50 at 100
>>>>>> quickness.
>>>>>> With further benefits again, for facets and special items. This may seem
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> bit much but remember there are penalties for armor, injury, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a TIER system, areas could be made to urge a player to be a certain
>>>>>> level to reach diffrent areas. No standard area where you have to make a
>>>>>> jump would require a huge quickness stat or facet bonuses, so the jumps
>>>>>> wouldn't be that far, but would require more skill as a player to land,
>>>>>> assume an average of 60 quickness by near the end of the game, and that's
>>>>>> your tier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exploratory areas could require a 100 quickness stat + facet bonuses +
>>>>>> items to reach certain areas (in a couple extreme cases).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Basically, you settle for 1 meter - 3 meter jumps to beat the game,
>>>>>> and use the rest as exploration/bonuses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:34 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ok and just another note... like nick and kent both said "we would
>>>>>>> give up using heavy armor for the extra speed and manueverability" well
>>>>>>> yeah- exactly, that is the point :) i want you to be able to make that
>>>>>>> decision on your own and not have it thrust upon you. I would make the
>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>> decision! having those kinds of options for customization is a major
>>>>>>> part
>>>>>>> of the design philosophy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:29 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> well the jump differences i gave were just examples that could be
>>>>>>>> tweaked, i.e. the athletic jump could be 2x or 3x whatever we decided
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> give them over the normal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> heavier armor -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> well let me start by saying the design is meant to keep most people
>>>>>>>> from using heavier armor, if you're exploring, you shouldnt be wearing
>>>>>>>> full
>>>>>>>> plate or heavy chain armor, it is unrealistic. I am a fan of medium and
>>>>>>>> light armors being the de facto standard but giving people who WANT
>>>>>>>> heavy
>>>>>>>> armor to use it if they desire.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Heavy armor would absorb damage from attacks, the main advantage to
>>>>>>>> heavy armor being that it protects better in combat. People can decide
>>>>>>>> whether to trade manueverability for the extra protection if they
>>>>>>>> want, or
>>>>>>>> maybe they just wear heavy armor when going up against a particular
>>>>>>>> boss or
>>>>>>>> maybe before going into a big battle with multiple foes and the extra
>>>>>>>> protection is worth the loss in dodging, etc.. basically, heavy armor
>>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>> special case scenario and not something most characters will want to
>>>>>>>> wear
>>>>>>>> most of the time, especially in exploration. The design is meant to
>>>>>>>> LEAD
>>>>>>>> people to discover this on their own, so we're not forcing them to not
>>>>>>>> wear
>>>>>>>> heavy armor all the time but we're making it beneficial for them not
>>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> as far as removing armor, going through a trap, then putting it back
>>>>>>>> on... well like i said, i don't encourage players to use heavy armor
>>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>>> exploration, if they want to go that route they can, but no one is
>>>>>>>> forcing
>>>>>>>> them to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also remember that heavier armor could be something you'd equip to
>>>>>>>> party members rather than the hero if you wanted a pure tank in your
>>>>>>>> group,
>>>>>>>> and that would not affect manuevering.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:21 PM, Kent Petersen
>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was thinking there should be another tier for exploration's sake.
>>>>>>>>> In your example you mentioned athletic being 1.5x jump and magical
>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>> 3.0x jump. I was thinking there should be a middle ground to create
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> levels of advanced areas you can reach. If we design the game
>>>>>>>>> properly this
>>>>>>>>> can be avoided and not an issue.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Heavier armor - What about out running enemies? In the cave our
>>>>>>>>> enemies chase down the player. If the player is wearing heavier armor
>>>>>>>>> he is
>>>>>>>>> just kinda fucked by comparison to someone wearing lighter armor and
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> better at avoiding enemies. A trade off would be taking less damage in
>>>>>>>>> combat but the player will most likely fight slower as well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What are the pros and cons to heavier armor?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are there over-world benefits for wearing heavier? Such as
>>>>>>>>>> resistance to different traps? If no, what's to say a player won't
>>>>>>>>>> remove
>>>>>>>>>> armor for doing maneuvers, then putting it back on to fight an
>>>>>>>>>> enemy; such a
>>>>>>>>>> case could get tedious fairly quickly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 11:10 AM, eric drewes
>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> just a quick clarification:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1) can't jump - only used to penalize people who wear armor they
>>>>>>>>>>> aren't strong enough for or for certain other special case scenarios
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 2) small jumping ability, used for injured players and players
>>>>>>>>>>> using plate armor
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 3) normal - the baseline we design for
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 4) extra-ordinary - this is for super athletic characters (or
>>>>>>>>>>> maybe special boots) that let you jump extra far, gives access to
>>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>>> special areas.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 5) magically imbued - this is very rare special case scenario, i
>>>>>>>>>>> actually think this one is possibly superfluous and could probably
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> eliminated without losing much.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the reasons for this is that people can understand their
>>>>>>>>>>> capabilities and limitations easily, there's less variables for
>>>>>>>>>>> them to
>>>>>>>>>>> understand and for us to design for, while still allowing a
>>>>>>>>>>> versatile system
>>>>>>>>>>> that benefits players who go with lighter armor or find special
>>>>>>>>>>> items that
>>>>>>>>>>> let them jump farther, etc. etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:06 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "I like Eric's system but I feel like there should be more than
>>>>>>>>>>>> 5 tiers. I was writing out a big counter point but in the end I
>>>>>>>>>>>> convinced
>>>>>>>>>>>> myself that I like this method best. I think there should be a
>>>>>>>>>>>> tier between
>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 and 5. A tier where the player is better than most but not
>>>>>>>>>>>> magically
>>>>>>>>>>>> imbued."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> well that was sort of the purpose for tier 4, to give something
>>>>>>>>>>>> between a normal person and someone who is magically imbued. that
>>>>>>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>>>>>>> there's a clear distinction between normal and extraordinarily
>>>>>>>>>>>> athletic
>>>>>>>>>>>> characters... i personally think adding another tier between the
>>>>>>>>>>>> two is ok
>>>>>>>>>>>> but it creates another segment to design places for and i am not
>>>>>>>>>>>> sure having
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 better than normal tiers is good bang for the buck... maybe some
>>>>>>>>>>>> hypothetical examples would help clear up the issue?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 12:00 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I like Eric's system but I feel like there should be more than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5 tiers. I was writing out a big counter point but in the end I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> convinced
>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself that I like this method best. I think there should be a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tier between
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 and 5. A tier where the player is better than most but not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> magically
>>>>>>>>>>>>> imbued.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> With the lax attitude of letting the player go where they want
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we can design difficult to access dungeons to require a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reoccurring use of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever skill is needed. For example if you need level 5 jump to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> access a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> secret dungeon then the secret dungeon should have parts in it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that require
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the level 5 jump. That way if a player does get in there they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will not be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to finish it. If they somehow find a way to exploit the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> system we could
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reward them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't see any major problems with having multiple jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:21 AM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Jumping is a stat based on quickness, facets, skills,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor, injuries, and special scenario items/boosts/uses. As the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player went
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> along in the game, increased their stats, got facets, etc; their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump would increase marginally rather than "look I suddenly jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An analog system would allow for extreme versatility without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> measure out specific jump levels. Getting injuries could slow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you down in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor/major degrees, rather than "will this injury drop me down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level?" same goes for armor."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the problem with this is... there's no clear tier for us to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design for, which means we're aiming at a moving target and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's no clear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "minimum" to design for, etc. All the problems chris brought up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> magnified 10x when there's no tier system. I actually picked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the tier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system as a bridge between 1 jump level and a purely analogue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasons i mentioned above.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Nick Klotz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I like to mix things up a little, but try to keep an open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind here!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No levels of jumping! That's right, none. You can jump,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jumping is a stat based on quickness, facets, skills, armor,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> injuries, and special scenario items/boosts/uses. As the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player went along
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the game, increased their stats, got facets, etc; their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability to jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would increase marginally rather than "look I suddenly jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher". An
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> analog system would allow for extreme versatility without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having to measure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out specific jump levels. Getting injuries could slow you down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minor/major degrees, rather than "will this injury drop me down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level?" same goes for armor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Re: Redux. Yeah, back in Gemstone3 I was a master of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system and for my level was point-by-point the toughest warrior
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the game.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gemstone4 changed the system and it became to fuzzy to learn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (nobody would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> release the exact system either), and I wasn't about to test
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warriors from 0
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to 30 for another year to try and figure it out. :\
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:27 AM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i want to explicitely thank chris, alan and katie for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offering the counter points to my original thought, i really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alternate perspectives of things will allow us to fully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explore elements of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game design like this and that it will ultimately deliver a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better, more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intuitive and most importantly more FUN gaming experience. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do not mind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debating the points as I have done below because frankly, if I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot defend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game design philosophy then the system we're discussing is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> broken and i need to work on it some more. besides that, it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my experience in designing the combat with nick that when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debating ideas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like this it occasionally inspires great new ideas. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually consider
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this to be a vital part of "pre-testing" so please, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> encourage you to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue offering your insights and perspectives!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To give you a specific example, your idea about armor making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slower and jump shorter will generally make players avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in any instance they can. In action based games, skilled
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go towards what is as fast and damaging as possible, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things like that on purpose.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - this is by design, we want to encourage people who are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exploring to use lighter armor, it makes no sense to go on a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> journey into a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mysterious temple that is bound to have traps, puzzles, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in full plate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor. We want that style of armor to be reserved for people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who accept the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> penalty of speed/jumping for the enhanced ability to take hits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting damage. this is a player choice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, having injuries slow you down will make players feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't be damaged. For things like this you want to flip the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tables,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and instead create armor that gives players more speed, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more damage. It might seem like a small thing, but in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eyes of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player it can make a huge difference in gameplay.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - also by design. We want players to feel like there are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concequences to being injured and it should be avoided as much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are penalties for being injured or dying - that is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> major part of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combat design here. We are trying to break away from the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> healing/ressurection that has been the common thread in most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rpgs. we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to get away from the attrition system. more info on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this below
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Basically ask yourself if you would play the game and have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the things you imagine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - one of my favorite gaming experiences is america's army,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and what makes it so great and so immersive is that you are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constantly in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fear of your life so there is actual tension on the battle
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> field, its not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like tf2 where you run out, spam attacks and if you get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> killed, oh well,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respawn. I love the idea of players figuring out the best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strategies to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stay alive and learning tactics and skills to do it. yes, it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a challenge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - but that is what makes it so great! Another game I love, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan pointed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out, is gemstone. Gemstone was ruthless with one shot kills,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leg chopped off and not being able to climb stuff, etc. like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's areas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the game you have to take your armor off and be athletic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in order to make it over there. staying alive is a major part
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of that game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and everytime you got hit, you would bleed and feel the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> effects of it. as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player you had to learn to adapt your skills and player style
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to prevent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself from getting damaged as much as possible. this is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> key element to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game design we are trying to go with. so to answer your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question - yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i think it'd be fun :P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me when I play
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arcade-ish style games like I the ones I think (if I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand correctly)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that we are trying to make, I think Chris has got a really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good point. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like to take the easiest route possible to get to the next
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> step. Not that we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should flake on stuff. But we should make sure to not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scrutinize/overthink
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things too much if that makes sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - this is an rpg, not an arcade game! :P the emphasis is on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exploration, not just going as quickly as you can to get to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (although you can if you so choose). what makes rpg's (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adventure games)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun for me is finding all the little secrets that are hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all over the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> world. also, everyone is acting like 5 settings is so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complex, really the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first one is only for special case scenarios and isn't meant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during actual gameplay, and the 5th one is really only to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> serve as a special
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing for use like spells, flying, etc. there are only 3 main
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ones, a weak
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump for heavily armored players, a normal one for most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, and a long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump for people who choose to sacrifice armor for speed and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manueverability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd bet this jump level thing would more or less be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> invisible / automatic to the player. Like when you were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heavier you just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont jump as high or as far. The player might not know there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are 5 levels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of jumping ability, they might just realize "hey when i take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off my armor i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can make that jump to that cave i couldnt get to before" (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe an NPC tips you off to that fact). Or there are boots
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that have the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> description of "wear to be able to jump higher"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -right, this is all an under the hood system. its funny
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because when i write stories, etc. i try to keep things as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> close to the vest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because i like the reader to be surprised, i like keeping a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mystery and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something for them to discover for themselves. this is also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> true in my game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design philosophy, give players a ton of neat stuff they can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find out for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves if they want to... the irony is, as a team we're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ALL under the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hood so i have to express all the hidden things to you guys so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it can get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made/discussed, but then everyone is like "oh that is overly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's no reason for that!" without putting themselves in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shoes of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player who doesn't even know the system exists and that its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just there for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to discover if they are curious and interested.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5 different jumps will matter only as much as we design the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to matter. In Diablo 2, the barb jump skill only let
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you cross
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain terrain that wasn't walkable, so having so many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lengths was easily solved - just make the pits larger. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we can find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an easy solution in our game - an equivalent to "just making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the pits
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> larger" - then we can add as many jumps as we want, and even
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scale into flying!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I recently learned how to do the shinespark tricks in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Metroid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Redesign, and if we could make our jumps in the game require
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a skill
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> curve somehow, that would reward the player for the ability
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher... almost like how in 3d Mario games, you have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump right as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you hit the ground again, within a certain amount of time,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do the triple jump.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -i actually view it as a really simple system that allows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a lot of neat versatility in game design and player
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strategy...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that allows for more skill based movement if people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are interested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because i know some crazy people (like nick) enjoy finding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crazy challenges
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and trying to exploit gameplay tools to get into areas, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i think that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is fun and great and should be part of our design. i picked 5
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the number
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so there would be differences between teh playing styles while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things we needed to design/test for to the minimum.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> okay so lets get down to brass tacks here (how much for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> monkey?) (3 adunai points to whoever gets the reference)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IMO we have 2 options:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a) 2 jump system - 1 for armor too heavy for you (basically,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-jumping) and 1 for normal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pros: easier to design for, easier to test for, no need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think about armor choices for the player beyond "is it too
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heavy?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cons: less versatile, no differences between wearing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> light/heavy/medium armor for adventurers, no hidden areas only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people who invest and discover ways to jump farther.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> b) 5 jump system - as illustrated above
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pros: more for the player to discover, another "tool" in our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tool box, gives extra strengths/weaknesses when picking armor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and character
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> style
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cons: harder to design/test, may baffle some characters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now obviously i am biased towards B (the 5 jump system) so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my pitch for it is, it'll be simpler in practice for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player/designer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than it may seem to you right now, it's important for game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balance between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> heavy/light armor, players can really just make sure they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at level 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (normal) and they will be able to get through the entire game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worrying about the difference in jump so i think there is zero
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bafflement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance, and it gives us another neat tool for desiging
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exploration and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden stuff in the game.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am definitely open-minded and can be convinced to go with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A) - so lets open it up to the forum and take a little poll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and if you want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to post comments/thoughts/ideas - then it'll give us more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make a good and intelligent decision.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:55 AM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i didnt have time to read everythign yet but basically here
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is my take...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 1 is basically a "your character is broken level" and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesnt need to be designed for, its basically a penalty thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we can use.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is the extreme
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 2 is needed to differentiate heavy armor from light
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 3 is what we will design for, it is "normal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 4 is to sepparate quick characters with ultra light
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor from people wearing normal armor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 5 is a special case scenario type of thing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're basically just designing the game for level 3, with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe a small amount of special case scenario areas for level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4/5 (like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under 2-3 per chapter)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i really don't think that it is overly complicated at all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and this will be a SUBTLE thing, i.e. again, most of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things like this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are only designed for people who want the bonus, but dont
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to have it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 3:01 AM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yeah actually thats a good point, i remember playin zelda
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you see objects which are obviously repeated (ie black
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rocks in link to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the past, or the docks in zelda 1 etc) and knowing "there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with those" but you dont know til you have the item. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forgot about that,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that was kinda fun gameplay :P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Chris Riccobono <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah, that's part of the fun of Zelda and Metroid style
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> games... getting those items that make you able to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things you didn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> predict were possible, so then the player wonders what cool
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing is gonna
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> come out next :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's a pretty cool idea for introducing game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mechanics.. the player doesn't know about them at all in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game until they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually get the item for it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yeah totally i agree with you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we were talkin about this before, we were saying having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lots of optional things to discover in a game makes it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem bigger because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we don't advertise what the "edges" are.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so yeah totally, if we advertise there are 5 jump levels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it ruins the magic, but if the player discovers "wtf i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump higher now?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they might try to see just how high they can jump. Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they get to level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 and never cap out at level 5, as far as they know the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sky is the limit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even though they are almost at the cieling hehe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Chris Riccobono <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, about the player not knowing there will be 5 jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels, that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would trigger the "yay I discovered something" emotion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun to learn how to do something to reach new places,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you know?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Chris Riccobono<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I do believe simplicity brings about the most fun
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when done correctly!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I think part of the fun of a game is learning how to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use the system,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > too, so when you can learn it very easy at first, you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are open to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > learning new mechanics as things go on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Alan Wolfe<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> You deffinately have a good point. Our game isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arcadey per se but it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> a game where you can go deeper if you want but don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> Like there will be lots to explore but it's all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> optional (Eric correct me if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> im wrong lol).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> I'd bet this jump level thing would more or less be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> invisible / automatic to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> the player. Like when you were heavier you just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont jump as high or as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> far. The player might not know there are 5 levels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of jumping ability, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> might just realize "hey when i take off my armor i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can make that jump to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> that cave i couldnt get to before" (and of course
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe an NPC tips you off
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> to that fact). Or there are boots that have the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> description of "wear to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> able to jump higher"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> But yeah there is deffinate wisdom to keeping it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple, especially keeping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> the end result the player sees simple.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> Someone should be able to pick up the game and be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to play without
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> having to read some huge manual :P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> the old saying "easy to learn difficult to master"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yadda yadda
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 10:13 PM, katie cook <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ktmcook@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Okay guys, this is just my opinion. =) For me when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I play arcade-ish style
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> games like I the ones I think (if I understand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correctly) that we are trying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to make, I think Chris has got a really good point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I like to take the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> easiest route possible to get to the next step. Not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that we should flake on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> stuff. But we should make sure to not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scrutinize/overthink things too much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> if that makes sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> I like the opportunity to get a little bit deeper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with a game if I choose
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> to at the time, but appreciate when I don't have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to. Usually arcades games
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> tend to be shorter in hours played. When I play a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short game, I don't wanna
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> have to invest a lot of time and deal with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> frivilous features. The easier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the game the funner it is for me (for arcade/short
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> games. I hope this makes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> sense.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Chris Riccobono <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crysalim@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> From: Chris Riccobono <crysalim@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Subject: [project1dev] Re: Project1 - SVN Update
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 270
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 9:46 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> 5 different jump levels is going to complicate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things a bit more than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> we want. Try to keep in mind that the ideal is to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make the game more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> fun. Ask yourself, will 5 different jumps enhance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game enough to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> warrant the amount of coding, designing, and bug
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> testing they will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> require?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To reiterate what I tried to stress early on, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want the game to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> as fun as possible, as simply as possible. Having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a complex game is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> great if it enhances the experience, but if it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't, it becomes a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> hinderance - just another game, in other words.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> To give you a specific example, your idea about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor making you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> slower and jump shorter will generally make players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> avoid doing that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> in any instance they can. In action based games,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skilled players will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> go towards what is as fast and damaging as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible, and will avoid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> things like that on purpose.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Also, having injuries slow you down will make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players feel like they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> can't be damaged. For things like this you want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flip the tables,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> and instead create armor that gives players more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speed, but they take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> more damage. It might seem like a small thing, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the eyes of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> player it can make a huge difference in gameplay.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> Basically ask yourself if you would play the game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and have fun doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> the things you imagine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Alan Wolfe<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > you know the kind of cool thing about this too
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > we could actually make situations that you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couldn't escape from, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > things like pits that when you fall into them you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> die instantly and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > return
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > to the void.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > those are really mean (literally!) features but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if we use them sparingly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > in some kind of "i told you not to look in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> box" situations that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > could be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > actually pretty funny.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > im not sure if you are down with it, but it would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bring a feeling of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > mortality :P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > ps i'll add the previous ideas to the wiki once i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get home if no one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > else
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > has by then. I dont mind but just can't right
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> now :P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> yes - harsh but like i said, its an emergency
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only option to be as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> last
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> resort... i think any other way of doing it will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allow too many holes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> exploits (such as exp or item farming, etc)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:43 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> so would you lose all exp, gold and items
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gained then?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:41 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> yeah i think that is what we';ll do, you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recall to the void at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> time but it effectively just restores a saved
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game so you gain no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> benefit to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> it. We'll make this sort of a last ditch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> option, so we'll try to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> design it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> so people never have to use it under normal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> circumstances
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> no, im just here to poke holes in your ideas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <g>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> jk but no im not sure... other than perhaps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the player can return to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> the void at any time, and the cost is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you've lost all the time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> you've
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> taken to progress to where you are (ie you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to walk back)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:38 PM, eric drewes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wait i take that back, i'll have to think of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a real solution. any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> ideas?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> ok
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> is recall always going to be available?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:35 PM, eric
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> recall
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Alan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> ok sounds good. the lax attitude and not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needing perfection
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> make it alot easier to test and build.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We'll just have to make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> sure and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> keep that in mind when designing things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> actually i think we will probably still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to do a lot of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> testing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> with the various jumps to make sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people can't get somewhere
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> they arent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> meant to be that they cant get out of -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ie i can enter this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> level 3 jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> area but i can't escape.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> what's your thoughts on that situation?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:29 PM, eric
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> well 2 things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> 1 - i am comfortable with the testing, i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think it'll add a lot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> the game - what do you guys think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> 2 - alan i would really say we'd only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to test for 2 things
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> the ability for level 2 to get past
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas that have no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> non-jumping route
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> through and to make sure tier 5 people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't exploit anything
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> we don't want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> them too... i would say if a tier 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person can find a way to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> get over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> something designed as a secret for level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 people, then that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> ok w/ me,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> and likewise with level 4 getting to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 5 areas. if they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> can find a way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> to overcome the handicap, i dont want to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stop them :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Alan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> and of course another option is we just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design it where fine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> tuned details like that aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> important
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> like if you can jump it instead of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having to get a rope and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> climb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> up, who cares!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> but shrug just wanted to point out this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aspect of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> solution!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:17 PM, Alan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea. It deffinately makes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thigns more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> exploration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> based since we could put places that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you can't get to while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> starting out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This isn't a deal breaker but i want
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to point out this will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> increase testing and designing time:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to be played
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the highest jump level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure they cant exploit anything
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they shouldn't be able
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * all maps will have to played with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the lowest jump level to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> make sure the minimum we want passable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is passable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> * for maps which have a specific jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirement areas (ie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> level 3 lets you get to this area)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll have to play with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> that level as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> well as the next level down to make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure the one below can't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> get up too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:11 PM, eric
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drewes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> what do you guys think of that scale?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that way we dont have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> guess when we design and we have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> baseline standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:58 PM,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> eric drewes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a voice spoke from the mountain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tops, "and let it be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spoken, there shall be 5 different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tiers of jumping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability, one for hardly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any jump at all, the next for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between the current jump and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the previous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> levels not-really-a-jump, the third
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is what is there now,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the fourth for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump equal to 1.5x as high/far as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 3rd and a fifth that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is triple the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normal jump - this will be reserved
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for special facet,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> item boosts or a max
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 100 quickness bonus.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically it is like this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 1) barely a jump at all, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will be for incredibly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fat characters (w/ the fat facet)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people with super heavy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor that they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aren't strong enough to wear,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> incredibly injured people,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people with snake
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> torsos, etc :-P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 2) this is what people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wearing plate/heavy chain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> armor,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or have relatively strong long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> injuries, etc. etc. will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 3) most characters will have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this jump, traps, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be designed with this as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> minimum - though
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically we want it to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a challenge for level 3 people.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some areas can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> designed so it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessible without level 4
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though, but nothing vital to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passing the map -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, traps/jump areas that aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible except
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> through jumping should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use level 2 as a minimum.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 4) super athletic character
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with light or no armor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have this, they can reach special
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas the other 3 levels
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't, jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> puzzles should be easier for level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level 5) these characters are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> magically imbued or have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> super
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> humanly agility, maybe they have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little wings, etc. by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> passable traps, areas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that can only be reached via long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distance travel, etc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these characters have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a big advantage on all jumping
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:29 PM,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kent Petersen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man, that sounds awful. At least
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we have learned these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lessons and now know how to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevent them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 4:26 PM,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> btw line rider had the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues tee hee
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In line rider, people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were exploiting a simple physics
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation to do tricks like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gravity wells and nose
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grinds and other stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we made the commercial
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of the game we had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make sure all the tricks were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still possible and we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brought in tech dawg to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> play it and make sure everything
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was still kosher.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the parts that sucked - whenever
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we optomized something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game it would break all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existing test maps we had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> made so we had to wait
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> til the very end of the game to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make the puzzle maps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also, since the DS, Wii and PC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all have different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> floating
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point math chips in them (and ds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had diff code), maps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't work the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on all the different platforms so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we had to keep sharing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be on the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> platform it was created on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:50 PM,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its ok man ::shakes you:: the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wars over, nixon is outa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> office now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:48 PM,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kent Petersen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Kent is having megaman
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flashbacks*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:47
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> indeed! I'm going to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> re-iterate what you said Kent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so people understand the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> importance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we should figure out how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high / far we want the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be able to jump and how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strong gravity should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muey importante~!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> once we decide we can't change
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without having to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and rebalance any existing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> physics dependant maps (ie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skill jumps, gaps that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the player should or should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not be able to jump over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc) which is a total
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pain and could really be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really really destructive to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our game having to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuild and rebalance a whole
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bunch of crap later.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, lookin at you Eric, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should talk about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finalizing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there anything specifically
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you for sure want the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player to be able to do? IE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jump across a certain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distance, jump over a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> certain hight object etc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:31
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PM, Kent Petersen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What did you want to do for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the first trap? I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagined
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that there would be 5 or so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different looking tiles.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then there would be one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct kind of tile (not the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diamond). Then the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player would have to jump
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about through the tiles to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the correct ones. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured it would work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similarly to the ones that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were on kenttest.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's your thoughts on that?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Before you get to into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> designing the temple I would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highly suggest that we nail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down player control and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jumping physics. Let me
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warn you from experience, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we change how any of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that works your temple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will become obsolete.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:25
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PM, Kent Petersen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Been really busy today and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will probably be busy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next couple days. I would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggest leaving the trap
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas open for now. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are willing to push on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway and have specific
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions, send em my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way and I will be happy to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> help out when I get a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:23
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Man that's awesome
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2:16 PM, Apache User
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dhapache@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> User:rorac
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: Expanded a little
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on templemap, added
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> template code as per
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kent's advisement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Need a sign (next room is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diamond path). Kent, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will need your help to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> help build that part and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> begin putting traps in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hallway (first right =
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first trap area).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Files Changed>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> U
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scripts/Maps/templemap.lua
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scripts/Maps/templemap_geometry.lua
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >> ;>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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