Re: windows vs mac (was Apple Developer site not letting me continue)
- From: Roopakshi Pathania <r_akshi_tgk@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 09:07:42 -0700 (PDT)
Hi,
OK, this topic has brought out a lurker like me in the open.
For what it’s worth, here are my views on the subject.
I consider myself an advanced user of GUIs as well as command
line tools on both Windows and Linux.
I don’t have a Mac just yet, but I read blogs, mailing list
archives and other material to keep a check on exactly what I’m missing and
perhaps to buy one in future.
I think that I’m as impartial as anyone can be because my
primary objective to derive as much productivity as I can from a platform while
dependent on a screen reader.
My main preference is open source software, but I have no
objection of using commercial software if that is the only way of accomplishing
a task.
So here are specific examples of what kind of advance stuff can
be done on both platforms.
Points in favor of Windows:
1.
It is possible to drop and drag shapes on Power
Point slides with Jaws, and if you are good at calculating distances, you can
also
roughly arrange these shapes into the positions that you want them into. Labels
can also be inserted in these objects. You can’t do this on a Mac and perhaps
not even with Apple’s scripting capability.
2.
Most of Excel’s advance capability can be
accessed using Jaws and other screen readers as well. Creating pivot tables,
vlookup, goal seek – I only need to read regular tutorials, experiment a little
with tabbing and using the F6 key, and I can figure most of the stuff out.
Presently, Numbers doesn’t seem to be as good with VoiceOver as screen readers
are with Excel on Windows.
3.
This has to be mentioned separately: I can write
simple as well as complex macros and can assign them to form controls, even if
those controls are not directly accessible by moving through the spreadsheet.
4.
NVDA with Firefox and Firefox add-ons like world
clocks, downloaders, and DAISY and ePub readers is simply amazing. Never saw
much on using Safari add-ons with VoiceOver.
5.
Access to Java Swing applications seems to have
a brighter (if it can be called that) future on Windows (Linux too, but we are
not going their). Apple has dropped official support for Java, and it remains
to be seen how VoiceOver will perform with applications dependent on Open JDK.
I have spoken to a friend and I’m not sure that Java Swing apps work better or
worse on a Mac as compared to Windows today.
6.
I have experimented with a lot of Windows based
applications for data analysis, mind mapping, trading, etc. While many of them
end up having accessibility issues, I can still find at least one from each
category that works for me. Perhaps this could be true for Mac as well, but I
haven’t found a Mac user who has similar interests in productivity applications,
so can’t say for sure.
Points in favor of Mac:
1.
Using a trackpad to explore the screen layout is
a big benefit that blind Windows users may not enjoy for years to come. This is
why iOS devices are so popular: you know where things are located just like
anyone else.
2.
GarageBand with VoiceOver is a good example of
what Apple can do for making complex applications completely accessible.
3.
As I mentioned previously, it is not clear how
many scientific or productivity applications are accessible out of the box, but
there is no reason why they shouldn’t be if they use Cocoa.
If I have left anything out from an advanced Mac user’s
prospective, feel free to point it out. But I fear that they aren’t too many
blind Mac users interested in spreadsheets, data analysis, numerical
computations, and similar stuff.
Twitter: @AccessAthena
Sent from my Lenovo ThinkPad
--- On Tue, 4/12/11, Jared Wright <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Jared Wright <wright.jaredm@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: windows vs mac (was Apple Developer site not letting me continue)
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Tuesday, April 12, 2011, 6:01 AM
I would say Windows is about in the same boat. Honestly if someone develops a
Windows app with two drops of common sense there's no reason these days why it
shouldn't be accessible. Both platforms are just fine unless a developer screws
it up. My comments relate more to the mobiel space where iOS is definitely
ahead of Android in the accessibility game, and that's definitely partly
because of the uniformity that Apple enforces on the platform. For a long time
I thought Android accessibility would at least catch up and possibly surpass
Apple, and I wish it would, because I think the philosophies of the Android
platform will be more sustainable in the longterm. But... *sigh* it just
doesn't appear to be happening. And the more I think on it, the more it
shouldn't surprise me. I just have to look at my own circumstances. I have
enough money to invest in either an iPhone or an Android. Now, I think I have
knowledge to contribute to Android accessibility, but
it's going to take a very compelling reason for me to invest money in the
product that I'll have to then invest a bunch of time into as well before I can
use it on the same level. So the cycle continues, and Android accessibility
will persist in being an average and cluttered situation. Basically people who
are in a position to make the investment in both platforms are the great
majority of the real viable contributors to Android's accessibility, otherwise
they have to pick between immediately being able to use their new toy or having
the Android available to work on. But I don't think Apple has quite an
accessibility advantage in the "nonmobile" space, where it's Mac Vs. Windows
Vs. Linux. They've done well, but their the extreme cost of the Mac itself
almost offsets the benefit of the screen reader being tied to the OS,
especially when you have NVDA and Orca making the strides they are. Their
advantage seems clear cut in the mobile arena though.
P.S. I admit I haven't made the investment in either platform yet, so my
comments purely relate to time spent on iPhones and a variety of Android
devices I've gotten to play with from friends. Certainly sufficient to get a
general feel of things, but perhaps having one of my own devices to hack away
with at my leisure would make some difference. But I know at this point I'm
probably going to invest in the iPhone and hope I can somehow get the funding
down the road to get an Android without the benefit of a carrier subsidizing
its cost in exchange for signing a contract so I can lend a hand on Android
access issues. But buying smartphones straight up is expensive business.
On 4/11/2011 6:42 PM, Alex Hall wrote:
> Can you give examples? Everyone on the Macvisionaries list, including
> Windows converts, seems to love Apple's os more. It is stable, easy,
> and there seems to be nothing it can't do, not including poorly
> designed third party applications.
>
> On 4/11/11, Ken Perry<whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> I have to disagree with this statement just because the Access comes
>> attached to the OS does not mean its ahead of its competitors. In fact I
>> have now been using mac for 7 or 8 months and I still find many things I
>> would rather do in windows because it's just much more accessible and
>> usable.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared Wright
>> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 5:58 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: Apple Developer site not letting me continue
>>
>> A bit ironic that Apple's iron grip on its platform is a big part of why
>> their accessibility is so far ahead of its competitors, especially in
>> the mobile space.
>> On 4/11/2011 3:10 PM, Florian-achtige wrote:
>>> Ugh...
>>>
>>> Alright i Like apple and how they made stuff accessible, but their
>>> idea of exclusivity is quite sickening sometimes
>>>
>>>
>>> 2011/4/11, Ken Perry<whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>> I never tried but you might be able to fool it by using chrom or firefox
>> not
>>>> sure though. I bet you could do it on your Itouch but it probably won't
>> be
>>>> fun.
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Hall
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 2:11 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Apple Developer site not letting me continue
>>>>
>>>> That's rediculous! At least tell me that, Apple!
>>>> So I need to have someone with a mac do this, or can I do it on my iPod?
>>>>
>>>> On 4/11/11, Ken Perry<whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> Let me guess you're trying to do this on a windows box? They actually
>>>> have
>>>>> their page rigged so you can't.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alex Hall
>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 12:50 PM
>>>>> To: programmingblind
>>>>> Subject: Apple Developer site not letting me continue
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> I know this is a bit off topic, but I am trying to sign up for a free
>>>>> apple dev account and am unable to do so. I am using an existing apple
>>>>> id and am at the personal information step. Despite filling every
>>>>> single field, I keep getting taken back to the same page with all my
>>>>> information filled in; the continue link is not continuing, but I see
>>>>> no errors on the page. Has anyone gone through this and figured it
>>>>> out? Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Have a great day,
>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
>>>> mehgcap@xxxxxxxxx; http://www.facebook.com/mehgcap
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>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>>>
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>
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