Hi Black:
Ya, if you are going to do anything like PHP with VS you need a plug-in.
That said, I wouldn't do PHP in VS to begin with - it wasn't designed
for that environment in the first place.
That would be the wrong tool for a PHP job.
I would use VB.net or C#.net as my programming language in VWD as the
correct programming tool.
The features in VS are, of course, better than in the Express versions
but the Express versions are free and you can develop a massively
complex and professional site in an Express version.
This includes MVC Apps as well as other Designer Structures.
Things I like in the Express, and VS, versions:
Code Behind in VB.net or C#.
Easy handling of Session State for UI controls.
Easy connection, binding, of DataBase to UI elements for CRUD operations.
Easy use of LINQ or DataSets to provide automatically generated
DataBase code on a massive scale.
Automatic, almost, Site Security, User Profile, Site and element
validation and verification for accessing everything related to the
site. This is at the page or even the element or class level.
Built in Com and other Features you can add with the click of the
keyboard.
Structured Class and other elements in a TreeView for easy management
of the Site's objects.
A bunch of pre-defined UI controls and the actual code used to
generate them.
Built in CSS support.
Master Pages and a whole bunch of other things I can't think of off
the top of my head.
These things make developing a Website light years faster and easier
than in a text editor saving you allot of time and isn't time money?
I have never used Eclipse but does it provide all, or most, of the
above features automatically while you are flying around trying to get
the client's site up in some insane timeframe and at some insanely low
cost?
The only thing I see that would have me consider working in Linux and
PHP and MySql was if the client specifically requested it, I had allot
of canned code for DataBase and UI and Session State operations and
the user was more concerned with a few dollars a month diference if
they needed to use a IP Host.
Most Professional users would have dedicated servers if they were of
any size.
Again, they would determine if I used VS, or Express modules, or did
my work in something like PHP and MySql.
In reality, I don't know PHP nor MySql so wouldn't take those jobs but
knowing those technicals would be helpful in getting more contracts.
If I were running a small business I would specialize in one platform
and dabble in the other. I would have a partner who specialized in the
other technicals and dabbled in mine.
That way you have the best of both worlds and can keep both partners
working at a professional level on contracts in either system.
It really doesn't matter to me.
My only mantras is use the right tool for the joband get the most bang
for your buck!
How each person fulfills these platitudes is up to them with their
individual skill sets.
Rick USA
----- Original Message ----- From: "Trouble" <trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: website and programming tools and acessibility with jaws
Yes, you do regain money back for expenses for tools needed. however,
your business model is lacking. You do that by jobs. The more you do
and have done. Well let you get a higher price for work. The second
part that lets you make that claim is quality of work. Just because
some one else uses less grade tools don't mean there better. Most of
them are cookie cutter programmers and do more copy and paste then
code writing.
With some jobs its your work more than you or your tools that makes
the difference.
At 07:57 AM 8/19/2011, you wrote:
Rick, you're right in part.
Imagine this scenario:
You are a single person working for different customers as a free
lancer.
You pay 1000 $ for a visual studio profesional environment (because
the express edition doesn't allow plugins right? And php on vs can
be done only with plugins).
So you must regain this money from somewhere, so you will increase a
little your price to get the 1000 $ back.
On the other hand, other person like you on the market, gets eclipse
and can do the same thing with it.
Eclipse is for free.
For this reason his price is less than yours.
What the customer will choose?
About the express editions:
Don't support plugins and addins, so you are fixed on "out of the
box " features.
This doesn't include php.
You don't have a lot of cool features from vs full edition:
1. Refactoring options are missing (things like encapsulate fields,
the feature which writes for you a property after you've added a
field to a class).
2. No setup projects (I realy like the setup projects in vs full
edition, the one which gets the project output from your solution
and makes an installer from it).
On the sql express part you have limitations on the number of
conections and on the database dimension.
For this reason you can use them only for small databases/websites.
Because of the price for the tools, the hosting is more expensive on
windows than on linux.
----- Original Message ----- From: "RicksPlace" <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: website and programming tools and acessibility with jaws
Hi Black: There are people doing development in various IDES and
using various tools. It almost sounds like you are a Contractor
since most in-house development, except the big guys, tend to use a
single platform.
As a pro you use the correct tool for the job or you can not be
competitive in today's insanely competitive market.
If you are developing for a client who wants a cheap system and
that is the primary goal then linux and MySql or another cheap
development platform might work. That said, it will take you longer
to develop the system if it is not a plain jane site. Of course if
you have been doing it for years and saved allot of code that will
help this method to be a viable approach. Otherwise it would be too
slow to create specialized UI controls and, or modify other peoples
code. If you want a 3 tier Data Driven system or MVC or other major
work you are light years better off with one of the major ides
since your client is not fooling around and can afford a couple of
bucks extra for a ASP host. Of course there is the whole
Dreamweaver thingy but that's another story...
So, as you mentioned it all depends on your skill level with each
tool and which tool will fit your client's requirements best. I
would go for the most bang for the buck.
The VS Express modules are not toys. They are a nice development
environment for free and give you access to a host of productivity
tools miles ahead of hand-coding anything related to aWebsite with
a Database.
The only real diferences are in the area of Project Control when
working with a group of other programmers from what I understand
and if you are on a team of say 5 or 10 people on a single project
you should be able to afford either VS or some Project Management
software.
Anyway, it is far from necessary that a developer work in more than
one platform so long as that platform has jobs connected to it. For
individual contractors it is a good idea to know more than one
system but there are enough jobs in VS or Linux or Apple based OS
platforms to keep an individual international contractor working
even if for slave wages.
Rick USA
----- Original Message ----- From: "black ares"
<matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 2:10 AM
Subject: Re: website and programming tools and acessibility with jaws
Really?
I didn't see some one using visual studio for php development.
And what you are saying is your point of view, not a professional
point of view.
Technically speaking, on the extreme side, you are right, you can
use what ever ide you want for doing development in what language
you want.
But explain me why some one will choose to use a 1000 $ tool (like
visual studio is) to do php development which is a free language.
If you choose to do php development it means that your customer
has not enough money to afford a payed technology, so for sure
he/she will not pay you higher price you have because of the
visual studio you use.
How ever, keeping the discussion in the technical view, I
reiterate the fact that I didn't see any one doing php development
on visual studio.
Can you show an example please?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Coale"
<ccoale427@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: website and programming tools and acessibility with jaws
Excuse me? Visual Studio is used extensively for web development
by many, many professionals. Yes, yes you can "hookup with a
specific IDE." HTML, PHP, ASP.net, etc. will all remain the same
code no matter which IDE (or non-IDE) a developer uses.
You are totally wrong saying that just because someone uses
Visual Studio as their IDE, they are bound to use Windows
hosting. First of all, the person's choice of IDE does not
determine which web host they use.
Considering you are a professional in a field, you should know
that HTML, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, ASP.net, etc. is the same
language and/or set of technologies regardless of the IDE you use.
On 8/18/2011 10:20 PM, black ares wrote:
The question is bad from the begining.
You can not ask about a website development tool, giving example
vs 2008/2010.
The man enroles in a website evelopment diploma so he aims to
become a professional.
So, as a professional, you can not hook up with a specific ide,
because you must develop according to the project you have.
For this reason sometimes you will find yourself working with
php with mysql, other times with asp.net o n vs 2008/2010 or
whatever vs is out on that time.
So you must manage every of them.
Because, if you learn only on VS, you will be forced to use
windows hosting for example, to buy and pay for the development
tools and for the database tools.
Don't tell me that there are express editions, that ones are
toys for children.
As a professional I must know how to manage eclipse for java/php
development, how to manage vs for dotnet/aspnet development, how
to use notepad or other editor to do xhtml/html layouts and so on.
best regards
----- Original Message ----- From: "RicksPlace"
<ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: website and programming tools and acessibility with
jaws
From what I have read and seen the VS 2008 or VWD 2008 platform
and the Sql Server or Sql Server Express (R2) versions because
they are newer, are the most accessible development platform if
you want a development IDE.
Otherwise some folks develop in a editor like notepad.
There are a bunch of stand-alone editors for building Websites
but I've not used them so can't speak to accessibility.
I would worry that they would try and do things like the VS
Designers but that they would not have the necessary hooks or
scripts to make them work at all.
Also, if they try and do Intellisense they might have that
inaccessible as well.
Newer versions might use WPF or what ever the newer
accessibility hooks for Linux and may not be accessible.
It is my understanding that the Dreamweaver and other software
put out by that compn=any was suppose to be getting more
accessible but I've not used it and don't know anyone who has
used it with a screen reader.
I guess what I am saying is that I have tried a couple of other
things over the past 10 years or so and not found one that has
all the bells and whistles and is accessible as the VS
environment. The 2010 version of anything put out by Microsoft
is not going to be nearly as accessible as the 2008 versions
since the 2010 versions use WPF and none of the current screen
readers support it very well. Also, the JAWS scripts for VS
will not work properly with 2010 versions.
It is likely your instructor will have you using whatever the
class uses but if not you can either stay with what you know or
try something new - it's up to you in that case.
You could try developing using another IDE and, or, get into
stuff like PHP and MySql using some kind of Website development
environment but I have never looked at any of them.
Others might have some suggestions on either hand-coding
everything using text editors or using another platform like
Dreamweaver or some Linux based system.
Later Marv and good luck:
Rick USA
----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Hunkin"
<startrekcafe@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 5:52 PM
Subject: website and programming tools and acessibility with jaws
hi.
well enrolling in a diploma in website development.
and developing a website.
now what web site development tools, and which programming
tools which works best with Jaws?
visual basic, visual web developer, c#, dream weaver, vs 2008,
or 2010.
which works best with jaws?
marvin.
ps: will take your more expertise in this area.
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