RE: [program-l] CodePlex Jaws VS 2010 AddIn - Come Join Us!
- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 09:32:10 -0500
That is a rediculus assumption. You can do everything from a command line
which I had to do on one project. In fact I had a hell of a lot more
control over the build environment by writing my own Microsoft build xml
files. Just because you can't use an IDE doesn't mean you will lose your
job it means you have to excel at what you do.
ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 8:48 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [program-l] CodePlex Jaws VS 2010 AddIn - Come Join Us!
Hi Justin: My thoughts are that another group could replace the original
group. I have just not seen that level of cooperation and skil set get
involved in over 5 years now even though there have been hundrreds of
requests for modifications to those original scripts. Justin: Look at this
senario and let me know what you think...
There is a blind fellow working for say Netflix. Let's say he will be
expected to work in Visual Studio, WPF and Silverlight.He gets the job
paying say $50k . He buys a house for his wife and child and starts work.
Now, a year later Microsoft changes the Accessibility hooks necessary for
his screen reader to work with Visual Studio. Now, he can try to get into
modifications of the Accessibility software himself which he may, or not,
have the time and necessary skill set for;Ask others to upgrade the Scripts
or plugin or whatever or perhaps quit his job, try and sell his house and
try and find another job likely someplace else in the country then move his
family and start over relying on the current accessibility environment for
Visual Studio which could break at any time again. Would it be worth it to
him to have a company like Microsoft, GW Micro, Freedom Sci or whatever
other company could do it manage a Professional Accessibility environment at
say $500 per year cost? Stiff Price? Sure but just a wild guess since there
are likely not more than 20 or so Visual Studio Programmers who might need
the product. What do you say to that fellow, his wife and child when your
plugin or script fails and he loses his job, home and perhaps family because
you wanted to be
a nice guy and develop something that will likely not be sustainable over
time but be free?
If you are thinking of some of the major free software out there you have a
Programming base of sighted folks of hundreds of thousands while only
perhaps 20 or 30 blind programmers who would be interested in Visual Studio
Accessibility on an ongoing basis for say the next decade or so.
I support your efforts fully but am stating the fact that in my opinion it
might be better to get commitments from the professionals to buy a product
and then contact development houses to find out if they might implement and
support the project for a fixed or floating fee. But, I am always for
learning and self-support so do not get me wrong. You go for it full bore
and, if you do not agree fully with me, disregard my posts completely - I
have a thick enough skin not to feel hurt and will watch your progress with
pride for you if you accomplish what the original group did and help even
one Professional get or keep their jobs and support their family!
God Bless and take my ramblings for what they are, just the opinion of an
old fat blind guy who is rather synical these days.
Rick USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Daubenmire" <jdaubenmire@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: [program-l] CodePlex Jaws VS 2010 AddIn - Come Join Us!
> Hi,
>
> I would like to comment on this but not with the intent of arguing. I
> just wanted to point something out. Who is to say that the project
> will not have professional programmers on it who meets all of the
> requirements you stated below? Free does not necessarily mean poor
> quality. In fact, all of us are using free scripts for vs 2005/2008
> developed by volunteers. The support those scripts bring to the
> community are outstanding and yes, they were free.
>
> Thanks to all of the prior programmers who made that project a
> success! You all are amazing!
>
> /Justin
>
> On 11/17/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> PMy problem is that I use the Express modules. Perhaps if there were a
>> way
>> to get, or use legally, a copy of Visual Studio I might be interested in
>> playing around a little to see what it all entails. I know that students
>> of
>> credited schools get free or low cost copies and there are other
>> situations
>> where MS has given away copies or sold them at a very low cost. If MS
>> were
>> to allow registered designers of the interface to use the student version
>> of
>> their software that might be a low enough cost to make it a viable option
>> for a home hobbiest on a very limited budget. I would still need to wait
>> for
>> GW Micro to get out their next version of WindowEyes since the current
>> version, 7.2, does not support the recent accessibility hooks replacing
>> MSAA
>> nor the newer internet standards. At that, the new GW scripting model
>> might
>> give as good of support as the plug-in if all the accessibility features
>> of
>> VS are accessible via the new UIA hooks for objects and process. Anyway,
>> my
>> guess is that there would be more folks willing to play with the code if
>> they could do so without having to lay out cash out of their own pockets
>> or,
>> at least, lay out a small amount.
>> For you University students and Industry Professionals, it would be
>> better
>> to hire a developer to use whatever tools are necessary to make the
>> package
>> totally accessible in a simple to use and responsive manner. Then you get
>> professional development with a consistent design, a support person who
>> is
>> paid to keep things up to date from release to release and likely a phone
>> number to call and remote sessions for paid or group support of the
>> product
>> and perhaps VS itself.
>> .
>> If you do it for free it would be nice but if you want something of
>> professional QUALITY it needs to be developed and maintained by either
>> an
>> established company or by a professional well aquainted with all
>> accessibility technicals and also with fairly heavy use of the Visual
>> Studio
>> product line with a screen reader. Both are quite complicated in my
>> opinion
>> when you dig into the depths of each technical and explore the features
>> other than the very most basics. That is why I did not fully support the
>> idea of a free solution at this level, it has allot of holes and
>> potentially
>> fatel holes as I have seen over the years with other projects that depend
>> on
>> volunteers. The current JAWS scripts are fairly simple, very simple me
>> thinks, compared to a full blown combined plugin and scripting solution
>> that
>> would work well for serious demanding professional environments requiring
>> DataBase, Internet - Web, various DB, UI and other Designer support,
>> DeBugging and dynamic visuals for wpf, Silverlight and the other newer
>> features and more features that I just can't think of off the top of my
>> head
>> right now. Let's say you manage to get a nice solution and a couple of
>> years
>> from now, or perhaps one year, MS changes up the IDE, the Designers or
>> other
>> internal features requiring major changes to code segments. If the folks
>> who
>> were working on the complex code blocks are no longer available to
>> dedicate
>> time to the project, well, it would not work for those folks who depend
>> on
>> it at their University or their Jobs and some may fail their attempts to
>> continue their education or even lose their jobs because someone at your
>> end
>> does not have time to keep the code up to date. "Remembering that this
>> code
>> is for professionals or students who will, hopefully, become
>> professionals
>> and not hobbiests it makes sense to me to devote dollars into making this
>> product a product, and or, service of an existing and credable company
>> with
>> experience in such technicals and a history of quality and the likelyhood
>> of
>> a continuing feature in the field so the product will continue to be
>> supported over the next couple of decades without inturruption or
>> problems
>> from the Blind Community of Professionals depending on the Accessibility
>> Product to support themselves and their families. Phew! Sorry for the
>> long
>> post but I wanted to explain why I was not fully behind this idea from
>> the
>> start. Because of the nature of the VS Product it is geared for
>> professionals who can afford, or are required for other reasons, to work
>> in
>> it and, or buy it.
>> These folks either make money from it's use or their Educational
>> institutions make money from the students or the State. Therefore, it is
>> logical to funnel some of that money into a product that will make the
>> required product, MS VS Studio available to those will benefit from its
>> use.
>> It is just logical and also correct in my opinion.
>> Sonar has remained accessible over the years using this approach and
>> accessibility is likely as though.
>> Rick USA
>> .i----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Cc: "Justin Daubenmire" <jdaubenmire@xxxxxxxxx>;
>> <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:06 PM
>> Subject: Re: [program-l] CodePlex Jaws VS 2010 AddIn - Come Join Us!
>>
>>
>>>I have noticed a number of negative reactions to Justin's post below. I
>>>think legitimate issues were raised, but a more constructive approach
>>>would
>>>
>>>be to engage in discussion with Justin about what features of the project
>>>would make you want to join. Through discussion, hopefully enough people
>>>can agree on something to work on collaboratively.
>>>
>>> Jamal
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/15/2010 7:01 PM, Justin Daubenmire wrote:
>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I have setup a code plex open source project for programming a vs 2010
>>>> addin for the jaws for windows screen reader.
>>>>
>>>> All information about the addin and for joining the project is found
>>>> at the following link:
>>>>
>>>> http://jawsvs2010.codeplex.com/
>>>>
>>>> Please pass on the link to any list or person you think would enjoy
>>>> being part of the team and contributing.
>>>>
>>>> I will be on list and available for any questions. I am looking
>>>> forward to all of us completing this project.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks and please let me know if there are any questions!
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Justin
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