Hi Justin: My thoughts are that another group could replace the original group. I have just not seen that level of cooperation and skil set get involved in over 5 years now even though there have been hundrreds of requests for modifications to those original scripts. Justin: Look at this senario and let me know what you think... There is a blind fellow working for say Netflix. Let's say he will be expected to work in Visual Studio, WPF and Silverlight.He gets the job paying say $50k . He buys a house for his wife and child and starts work. Now, a year later Microsoft changes the Accessibility hooks necessary for his screen reader to work with Visual Studio. Now, he can try to get into modifications of the Accessibility software himself which he may, or not, have the time and necessary skill set for;Ask others to upgrade the Scripts or plugin or whatever or perhaps quit his job, try and sell his house and try and find another job likely someplace else in the country then move his family and start over relying on the current accessibility environment for Visual Studio which could break at any time again. Would it be worth it to him to have a company like Microsoft, GW Micro, Freedom Sci or whatever other company could do it manage a Professional Accessibility environment at say $500 per year cost? Stiff Price? Sure but just a wild guess since there are likely not more than 20 or so Visual Studio Programmers who might need the product. What do you say to that fellow, his wife and child when your plugin or script fails and he loses his job, home and perhaps family because you wanted to be a nice guy and develop something that will likely not be sustainable over time but be free? If you are thinking of some of the major free software out there you have a Programming base of sighted folks of hundreds of thousands while only perhaps 20 or 30 blind programmers who would be interested in Visual Studio Accessibility on an ongoing basis for say the next decade or so. I support your efforts fully but am stating the fact that in my opinion it might be better to get commitments from the professionals to buy a product and then contact development houses to find out if they might implement and support the project for a fixed or floating fee. But, I am always for learning and self-support so do not get me wrong. You go for it full bore and, if you do not agree fully with me, disregard my posts completely - I have a thick enough skin not to feel hurt and will watch your progress with pride for you if you accomplish what the original group did and help even one Professional get or keep their jobs and support their family! God Bless and take my ramblings for what they are, just the opinion of an old fat blind guy who is rather synical these days.
Rick USA----- Original Message ----- From: "Justin Daubenmire" <jdaubenmire@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 8:19 AM Subject: Re: [program-l] CodePlex Jaws VS 2010 AddIn - Come Join Us!
Hi, I would like to comment on this but not with the intent of arguing. I just wanted to point something out. Who is to say that the project will not have professional programmers on it who meets all of the requirements you stated below? Free does not necessarily mean poor quality. In fact, all of us are using free scripts for vs 2005/2008 developed by volunteers. The support those scripts bring to the community are outstanding and yes, they were free. Thanks to all of the prior programmers who made that project a success! You all are amazing! /Justin On 11/17/10, RicksPlace <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:PMy problem is that I use the Express modules. Perhaps if there were a wayto get, or use legally, a copy of Visual Studio I might be interested inplaying around a little to see what it all entails. I know that students of credited schools get free or low cost copies and there are other situations where MS has given away copies or sold them at a very low cost. If MS were to allow registered designers of the interface to use the student version oftheir software that might be a low enough cost to make it a viable optionfor a home hobbiest on a very limited budget. I would still need to wait forGW Micro to get out their next version of WindowEyes since the currentversion, 7.2, does not support the recent accessibility hooks replacing MSAA nor the newer internet standards. At that, the new GW scripting model might give as good of support as the plug-in if all the accessibility features of VS are accessible via the new UIA hooks for objects and process. Anyway, myguess is that there would be more folks willing to play with the code ifthey could do so without having to lay out cash out of their own pockets or,at least, lay out a small amount.For you University students and Industry Professionals, it would be better to hire a developer to use whatever tools are necessary to make the packagetotally accessible in a simple to use and responsive manner. Then you getprofessional development with a consistent design, a support person who ispaid to keep things up to date from release to release and likely a phonenumber to call and remote sessions for paid or group support of the productand perhaps VS itself. . If you do it for free it would be nice but if you want something ofprofessional QUALITY it needs to be developed and maintained by either anestablished company or by a professional well aquainted with allaccessibility technicals and also with fairly heavy use of the Visual Studio product line with a screen reader. Both are quite complicated in my opinionwhen you dig into the depths of each technical and explore the features other than the very most basics. That is why I did not fully support theidea of a free solution at this level, it has allot of holes and potentially fatel holes as I have seen over the years with other projects that depend onvolunteers. The current JAWS scripts are fairly simple, very simple methinks, compared to a full blown combined plugin and scripting solution thatwould work well for serious demanding professional environments requiring DataBase, Internet - Web, various DB, UI and other Designer support, DeBugging and dynamic visuals for wpf, Silverlight and the other newerfeatures and more features that I just can't think of off the top of my head right now. Let's say you manage to get a nice solution and a couple of years from now, or perhaps one year, MS changes up the IDE, the Designers or other internal features requiring major changes to code segments. If the folks who were working on the complex code blocks are no longer available to dedicate time to the project, well, it would not work for those folks who depend onit at their University or their Jobs and some may fail their attempts tocontinue their education or even lose their jobs because someone at your end does not have time to keep the code up to date. "Remembering that this code is for professionals or students who will, hopefully, become professionalsand not hobbiests it makes sense to me to devote dollars into making thisproduct a product, and or, service of an existing and credable company with experience in such technicals and a history of quality and the likelyhood ofa continuing feature in the field so the product will continue to besupported over the next couple of decades without inturruption or problemsfrom the Blind Community of Professionals depending on the AccessibilityProduct to support themselves and their families. Phew! Sorry for the long post but I wanted to explain why I was not fully behind this idea from thestart. Because of the nature of the VS Product it is geared forprofessionals who can afford, or are required for other reasons, to work init and, or buy it. These folks either make money from it's use or their Educational institutions make money from the students or the State. Therefore, it is logical to funnel some of that money into a product that will make therequired product, MS VS Studio available to those will benefit from its use.It is just logical and also correct in my opinion. Sonar has remained accessible over the years using this approach and accessibility is likely as though. Rick USA .i----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx> To: <program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: "Justin Daubenmire" <jdaubenmire@xxxxxxxxx>; <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [program-l] CodePlex Jaws VS 2010 AddIn - Come Join Us!I have noticed a number of negative reactions to Justin's post below. Ithink legitimate issues were raised, but a more constructive approach wouldbe to engage in discussion with Justin about what features of the project would make you want to join. Through discussion, hopefully enough people can agree on something to work on collaboratively. Jamal On 11/15/2010 7:01 PM, Justin Daubenmire wrote:Hi Everyone, I have setup a code plex open source project for programming a vs 2010 addin for the jaws for windows screen reader. All information about the addin and for joining the project is found at the following link: http://jawsvs2010.codeplex.com/ Please pass on the link to any list or person you think would enjoy being part of the team and contributing. I will be on list and available for any questions. I am looking forward to all of us completing this project. Thanks and please let me know if there are any questions! Regards, Justin ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** program-l-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind__________ View the list's information and change your settings at //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
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