RE: introduction, and first query

  • From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26" <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
  • To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 07:21:00 -0400

Samir, The xxx and yyy units you'll have to deal with are pixels.  On
its surface your question might not seem too difficult however, many
different screen resolutions are in use today and each resolution has a
different set of pixel numbers as its maximums.  So what'll look fine on
one monitor may look bizarre on another monitor depending on what
monitor resolution can be used.  When html was developed, the inventors
did something very smart to get around this problem.  They arranged
things so that a web page writer could use percentages of pixel real
estate as well as pixel real estate to position things on the screen.  I
hope by now someone wrote an add-on for visual studio to make this
possible too but I don't know that for sure.  Or perhaps some obscure
syntax in visual studio/visual basic makes this possible now, I don't
know.  I'm not much farther ahead of you on this learning curve.
This may not necessarily give you a definitive answer but may explain
why you are without one for this long.  You could try for x=15 and y=40
as a starting position but remember the rest of what I wrote.

Rot47: <;F56]52D9:6==@?2GJ]>:=>
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of sameer
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:58
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: introduction, and first query

respected folks out there,
i know, that that many of you have already taken my query on priority
basis to answer it efficiently, but as i've already expressed my doubt
in the context, a very, very humble request to please please help me out
acording to my last post.
no, never imposing any  botheration, but this little learner seeks for
your kind help.
yeh, i've posted second of it's type of post that just requests to
answer of previous post, but sorry guys, i'm not patient enough.
please forgive me if you did not find this appropriate, but if you ever
find it, then kindly come up with your explainations as what should be
the correct positioning acording to what jaws announces, as left xxx,
top xxx.
complete query in detail, is in my last post. just did not wanted to
repeat here.
appologies in advance for anything unappropriate, i've already said,
that this is first and only mailing list i'm subscribed, so it will take
a bit more to me to get familiar and adapt right adicates.
in waite of your responses,
sameer manohtra.

On 6/16/09, sameer manohtra <sameermanohtra@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Seriously, thanks extreme to one and all for continuesly answering my 
> question.
> Tyler bro, you've explained so nicely, actually, so accurately, but 
> it's just that I'm too inane in programming, and possibly I might not 
> be having that good idea on how to setup a form with a great looking 
> UI.
> Further, it seems, that possibly I don't know the important jaws 
> commands while setting up the layout, though there are various given 
> in the help section, but diamond is just a stone until it is 
> identified.
>  DaShiell, Jude bro, infinite thank for encouraging me.
> Dorene Cornwell bro, specially, you've been so nice to me. I mean, the

> way you've encouraged and enlighten me, is really admirable.
> And if about the elf bro, I have no words for his efforts and passion 
> of helping this adolescent. Simply incredible!
> What so ever, outrageously, even after these very hard and immense 
> efforts of all you prudent people, this silly boy still could not get 
> the things properly.
> In the sense, that ok, perhaps I've got the concept somehow, that 
> labels should be at the top of the form, with their associated textbox

> lined up, and touching their edges on the right of the textbox.
> button should be in the left of those components as textboxes.
> But, it's still not clear about their positioning on the board.
> Say for example, if I have two labels, two textboxes, and two buttons 
> as previously, and I'm setting up the layout now, what should be their

> positions?
> I mean, if I'm on the textbox, until what announcement of jaws I 
> should scroll the same to make it fit?
> Can some one give correct position once to make me understand this 
> donting looking task?
> What I am looking for now, is the position of components as top xxx, 
> left xxx.
> Perhaps I will clearly understand it after you elaborate the same
> Sorry for bothering you again and again, but still looking for help 
> overwhelmingly.
> Sameer manohtra.
> On 6/15/09, The Elf <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> alright, I'll try again.
>> the layout of a form for a program depends on many things, what the 
>> program is for is the biggest. the layout for a questionnaire is very

>> different from a diary program, or a phone book or a calendar 
>> application, and far different than a game.
>> are you using jaws?
>> if so, I can give you a way to look at what is being done for the 
>> sighted application users.
>> open a program, then route jaws cursor to the PC cursor (insert key 
>> and jaws curser key), release the keys, then hit the jaws key twice 
>> quickly.
>> you will then be using the "invisible cursor"
>> with this you can arrow up and down and see the basics of how a 
>> programs interface is laid out.
>> in your example you could do it several ways, one would be with the 
>> labels across the top of the form, with a gap in between them then 
>> put the two text boxes directly under the labels but lined up with 
>> them
>> and then put the two command buttons centered under the text boxes.
>> or, you could put the first label in the top left corner, with its 
>> corresponding text box next to it, touching on its right edge then 
>> put the second label under this with its text box to the right of it 
>> and put the two buttons either under these or to the left of these.
>> just to clarify something, in the controls properties, left is the 
>> left edge of a item, top is the top edge; these are the two points of

>> reference for where a control is placed. you also need to pay 
>> attention to the width and height of each control, since it will 
>> occupy the space from its top and left corner, to the position where 
>> it ends to the right of this point, and down to the end of the 
>> "height" of the control
>> in other words a control that has its top and left at 0 and 0 starts 
>> in the top left corner of the form, and runs across to the right, the

>> amount of its width.
>> it as well runs from the left top edge down to the point that is 
>> given in it's height.
>> so if in height it reads 315, then the control occupies from 0 to 315

>> along the edge from top to bottom.
>> if left is 0 and width is 1215, then it occupies the area from 0 to 
>> 1215 from right to left
>> does that clear it up for you?
>> more notes: you want a text box or such, list combo box etc to touch 
>> to its related label, but no others, a button has its own title, so 
>> it does not need a label, and shouldn't touch anything else
>> the only time a control should be in the same area as another control

>> is if you want to use different controls in the same spot depending 
>> on a choice made in another box or control, example:
>> I put a frame on a form (I think they changed the name of this in 
>>, but can't remember what its called now, I think a container).
>> into this frame I put two radio buttons, one over the other, I give 
>> the one the caption "by category" and the other "by name", each is to

>> be programmed to do a different thing, the first will display a list 
>> box of categories that a person can choose from, and a button to 
>> display the information.
>> the other shows a text box for the person to enter a search word into

>> and a button to start the search.
>> I can put one label on the form, and just below it I place the list 
>> box and the text box one on top of the other. and at the end of these

>> I put a command button.
>> when the person chooses the "by category" option button, depending on

>> what was originally showing, I can make the text box invisible, make 
>> the list box visible, change the label to say "categories" and make 
>> the buttons caption read "Display"
>> if they choose the search radio button, the list box is made 
>> invisible, the text box is made visible (and useable), and change the

>> label to "type search term" and change the caption of the command 
>> button to read "search"
>> but a situation like this, where a choice changes the other items on 
>> the screen, and you want to use only one form for all the choices, is

>> the only time you would wish items to occupy the same spot. the rest 
>> of the time you want them laid out in an organized and readable 
>> fashion.
>> the Lego idea was a good one, you can also take a few small coins, 
>> and a bit of dymo or scotch tape, and a sheet of paper and make a 
>> mock up of your display.
>> lay the piece paper on the table, with its long dimension running 
>> from left to right, use the tape, and the coins (you want something 
>> about the size of an American 10 cent piece, also called a dime) to 
>> represent your buttons, and use these to make a tactile version of 
>> the display you wish to make the coins for buttons, check boxes, and 
>> radio buttons, and pieces of tape about as long as a little finger to

>> represent a label, text box, or combo box, and several one under the 
>> other for a list box, this will allow you to feel how it is, and 
>> decide where things should go.
>> there should be a site out here, run by someone on the list which has

>> sample projects that are a small program similar in nature, written 
>> in several languages for comparison, that would give you an example 
>> of a project and how it's laid out.
>> Sina, ya out there?
>> Hope this helps,
>> inthane
>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>> for blind computer users and programmers 
>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises
>> "own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!"
>> Owner: Agemtree
>> "merchants in fine facetted and cabochon gemstones"
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "sameer manohtra" <sameermanohtra@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 6:30 AM
>> Subject: Re: introduction, and first query
>> hey guys,
>> i'm sure, that all you might be busy in your respective works, and 
>> possiblly enjoying the weekends.
>> in fact you should, but hope this mail will not prove a donting stuff

>> to you.
>> well, just wanted to request, that please answer my query in a more 
>> brief manner as i have requested in my last mail.
>> i know, that i can't bother you for answering, but hope i at least 
>> can do a humble  request.
>> if you think, that i could have be a bit more pationt, then you are 
>> right to some extent, but since the query is a bit more urgent, and 
>> further i'm not aware from mailing list's adicates as i'm not 
>> subscribed to any other mailing list as of now, please excuse me in 
>> case you didn't liked me reminding you for responding.
>> hope to have a quick response, again a very humble request by a tiny 
>> creature.
>> sameer manohtra.
>> On 6/13/09, sameer manohtra <sameermanohtra@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> First, deep gratitude for finding my silly query worth answering.
>>> Thanks to all of them who have welcomed me on this pleasant glory.
>>> In fact, I highly admire all of your's techno skills, and therefore 
>>> request to please explicate the thing in more easyer words for me.
>>> I told, that I'm extreme beginner when it comes of programming, and 
>>> therefore I find my self unable in understanding several highly 
>>> sentric words.
>>> Apologies for that trubble.
>>> Say, for example, I have two text boxes, two labels, and two
>>> What should be their best positions, and why?
>>> Yeh, I can hear jaws announcing several stuffs like top 0, left 0, 
>>> etc, but I really have no idea how to put these sort of positions 
>>> suitably.
>>> Those who have asked, I'm a totally blind since birth, and I even 
>>> have no cited person to explain me about these layout in such a way,

>>> that can help me while setting it up.
>>> In wait of your quick responses,
>>> Sameer manohtra.
>>> On 6/12/09, DaShiell, Jude T.  CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26 
>>> <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> I used those as a child but when building was done in order to make

>>>> buildings stronger, bricks were half overlayed just as is done in 
>>>> real building masonry.  A second row was offset halfway so the 
>>>> center of a brick for example on the second row covered each join 
>>>> of bricks on the first row.  The third row had its centers right 
>>>> over the joints on the second row and so on.  True with a very poor

>>>> structural design a congenitally blind student might start to get 
>>>> an approximation of how a form would need to be designed later (no 
>>>> offsets), bricks placed at proportional distances and so on.  I 
>>>> also think there's an extremely high probability those in the study

>>>> did use legos and building blocks as children and it didn't help 
>>>> either.  I think a good predictor whether an individual will not 
>>>> have trouble designing forms is if they did really well in Calculus

>>>> and had no trouble with the visualization exercises.
>>>> That leaves me out, and for your information sighted developers 
>>>> routinely fix up my forms before management gets to see them when 
>>>> I'm doing development.
>>>> Rot47: <;F56]52D9:6==@?2GJ]>:=>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bryan 
>>>> Schulz
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 13:30
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: introduction, and first query
>>>> hi,
>>>> i find this theory a LOC as especially people blind from birth can 
>>>> use lego boards and rectangle bricks to learn spacial relations and

>>>> be better able to layout forms.
>>>> Bryan Schulz
>>>> The BEST Solution
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "DaShiell, Jude T. CIV NAVAIR 1490, 1, 26"
>>>> <jude.dashiell@xxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:41 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: introduction, and first query
>>>> Over on the access-l mailing list a summary of the results of a 
>>>> study were released that make it pretty clear how well blind 
>>>> programmers end up doing with graphical user interface design 
>>>> depends strongly on when they became blind.  Those blind at birth 
>>>> have the most difficulty designing such interfaces and those with 
>>>> some memory of vision have the least difficulty.  That study will 
>>>> need replication and likely will have impacts on interface design 
>>>> in the future.  A swag on my part is you like me were blind at 
>>>> birth or so shortly after you have no memory of vision based on 
>>>> your colleagues descriptions of your interface design.
>>>> The only way this facet of your work is likely to improve fast is 
>>>> if one of your colleagues does a walkthrough of your interface with

>>>> you and describes intelligible standards that will enable you to 
>>>> fix your work up and your colleague will need to check your fixes 
>>>> to be sure both of you are on the same page.  So far as I know 
>>>> neither Microsoft nor any other vendor has put a tool on the market

>>>> to take a working console application and make another instance of 
>>>> it that's a windows form application.  Should that ever happen 
>>>> provided its output is mostly acceptable lots more should be 
>>>> possible for you quickly.
>>>> Rot47: <;F56]52D9:6==@?2GJ]>:=>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of sameer 
>>>> manohtra
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 9:40
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: introduction, and first query
>>>> Hello guys,
>>>> My self sameer manohtra from India, and I'm a totally blind.
>>>> Due to my concealed interest in programming, I have started 
>>>> learning the first programming language of my life that's
>>>> In fact I'm not that highly rational when comes the question of 
>>>> programming, so will keep seeking your kind help.
>>>> I'm not very sure about all of you people as I've just found this 
>>>> list when I was googling something on the same topic, but I'm quite

>>>> sure that all of you have nicely attained your endeavors, and in 
>>>> fact are one of the prominents of society.
>>>> As I have subscribed on this list now, you will keep receiving 
>>>> silly questions from my side, as I'm just an apprentice in all 
>>>> those stuffs what you have already mastered.
>>>> Before asking any queries, would like to tell, that I'm using jaws 
>>>> version 7.0 and VS 2005.
>>>> Further, scripts of jaws for vs 2005 is installed.
>>>> The first, and chief problem I'm facing from the first day of 
>>>> learning, is that I'm unable to set the layout of my forms.
>>>> For example, I found it unattainable to set different components on

>>>> their right positions as buttons, text boxes, labels, group boxes, 
>>>> or what so ever.
>>>> I mean, that  my cited counterparts always keeps telling, that my 
>>>> forms looks so bizarre in terms of design.
>>>> Though jaws still navigates finely, and therefore I always find my 
>>>> self unable satisfying my friends via designing, and proper 
>>>> placement of my form items.
>>>> So, is there any specific technique from which we can set a 
>>>> relatively good layout, so that at least cited people don't finds
it odd?
>>>> Mostly, my text boxes would be so lower side, button would be on 
>>>> top, labels somewhere hidden, and all that pathetic what my friends

>>>> tells me.
>>>> Are  their any particular guidelines or sort of stuff about placing

>>>> these ToolBox components which can make it look user friendly?
>>>> In wait of your quick responses,
>>>> Sameer manohtra.
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