Re: iPhone development

  • From: Chris Hofstader <cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2010 10:21:23 -0400

Jamal et al,

I did not say that the single source file approach to some of the Fruit Basket 
programs is essential to their value, I'm just a little frustrated trying to 
find someone to port the baskets to a GNU/Linux, Gnome based system. We have a 
call for volunteers out in all of our international locales and in the US 
asking for help in this porting but we've no takers and the one person we did 
have was stopped by her professor because he found the code to be oddly 

If someone can write up a few paragraphs describing in general terms what FB is 
and why it is important, I'll get it up onto the FSF web site as soon as I can. 
If you don't look at much, you won't, therefore, be able to see how 
rapidly we are improving it and an accessibility section is under way but, 
except for our original statement, still not there but will be soon. Anyone who 
wants to write articles about FLOSS at on GNU/Linux platforms (it's ok if they 
also run on Windows or Mac but they must also work as well on free operating 
systems) should write to me off-line to discuss topics of interest and how best 
to present them.

If anyone out there wants to help port FB to a Gnome desktop, I can send them a 
pretty good  computer that they can keep as their own once they complete some 
subsection of FB in  Gnome desktop.

Currently, from Gnome Foundation, Linux Foundation, FSF and elsewhere, the 
absolute highest priority is that we work with Gnome 3 as soon as it ships. 
This requires that we make a major change to DBus which means that it's really 
"under-the-hood" system hacking and lots of regression testing to make sure 
that Orca and other AT for Gnome weren't broken by one of these new changes.

Again, any help would be greatly appreciated. Getting a free computer in the 
bargain should also alleviate fears of damaging one's main machine by polluting 
it with a GNU/Linux distro.

Lastly, I will pay for shipping out of pocket for the computer in the US but I 
need to ask that anyone outside the country pay for shipping and whatever 
customs charges come with taking receipt of a desktop computer.


PS: The computer cannot be shipped until 10/25 or so as it is in my house in 
Florida and no one will be there until the twenty-fifth of this month.


On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:27 AM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:

> There is absolutely nothing in the criteria for a fruit basket program that 
> says UI and other code need to be mixed.  That is a design choice that some 
> have made, but there are other samples, e.g., Visual Studio projects, where 
> UI and other code is separated.  So, those folks should be encouraged to 
> submit programs that meet the criteria and separate the code and files 
> however they think is best.  The criteria specify how the dialog should 
> behave, not how the underlying code should be structured.
> Jamal
> On 10/10/2010 2:30 PM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>> Thanks Ken.
>> I hadn't heard of Appcelerator but I'll look around for it and see what
>> I may be able to learn about it. It would certainly be convenient to get
>> iPhone and Android all in one project. How accessible is it?
>> I know that Fruit Basket is intended to show blind people how to do UI
>> without sighted help. I was just mentioning that I don't do a lot of UI
>> stuff as my UI ideas tend to suck and someone always needs to jump in
>> and help me out before shipping a program.
>> The problem with our friends in Venezuela didn't object to a blind
>> person writing UI code, they didn't like the entire program being placed
>> in a single source file as that would make for a lot of difficulty
>> working on multi-hacker projects and generally more difficult to find
>> any specific item.
>> Blind people should learn how to make GUI code but I am still willing to
>> bet that the marketing department will want things rearranged as this is
>> the issue even with sighted hackers. Personally, I think emacs has the
>> greatest UI in the world so the average man on the street thinks I am
>> probably seriously mentally ill.
>> I would like to see FB for Gnome and for the Apple operating systems but
>> no volunteers have come forward yet.
>> cdh
>> On Oct 10, 2010, at 1:39 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>> Actually you can also use Appcelerator and when using it under Mac you
>>> can actually code for IPhone and Android both at the same time.
>>> Remember though the fruit basket was originally designed to show how
>>> to make UI for blind people. Using a sited person to do it really
>>> doesn’t count. That is why I have not done one already.
>>> Ken
>>> *From:* programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Chris
>>> Hofstader
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:09 PM
>>> *To:* programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> *Subject:* Re: iPhone development
>>> To develop iPhone apps you are almost forced to use the xcode
>>> development system that ships with every Macintosh. I know a few blind
>>> people who use it with pretty good success. The hardest part, of
>>> course, is arranging controls in your UI as there is no accessible way
>>> to do this.
>>> When coding for iPhone, I use emacspeak as my editor and xcode as an
>>> IDE and get help from a sightie for layout issues.
>>> I thought of trying to find someone to help make a "fruit basket" for
>>> OSX and iOS but haven't had any takers so far. I'm not even sure that
>>> OSX or iOS permit putting all of the UI code in the same file as the
>>> rest of the program which is how many of the Fruit Basket programs are
>>> designed. Also, while it's possible to write iOS code in C or C++, for
>>> all intents and purposes, you are forced to use Objective C, an odd
>>> language that only Apple supports as far as I can tell. So, a fruit
>>> basket program for a single language (Objective C is preferred for OSX
>>> as well) might be something we can find someone to do. Of course, if
>>> you embed a WebKit control in your iOS program, you then need to
>>> follow the WCAG guidelines for the content you expose using it so
>>> JavaScript and some other things become important but doing an FB
>>> program would be silly as it is all described nicely in the WCAG and
>>> other W3C standards documents.
>>> I had thought I had a student in Venezuela who was going to make Fruit
>>> Basket ports for GNU/Linux systems running the Gnome desktop. She is
>>> taking a class called "Computer Languages" which, when I took it back
>>> in 1980 or so, taught us 13 languages in 13 weeks and, as I saw it, it
>>> was a pretty major waste of time and, to this day, I've never seen
>>> anyone ask for Snobol/V, Wafter, Spitbol and a few of the others we
>>> had to learn back in the dark ages. Our Venezuelan student's professor
>>> liked the idea of the Fruit Basket for Gnome until he found files that
>>> contained the UI and the rest of the program as he thinks it is bad
>>> software engineering practice. Our student friend is doing all console
>>> programs instead and we're still looking for a volunteer to do the FB
>>> port.
>>> I do not find asking for sighted help on UI layout to be a problem for
>>> me. When I could see perfectly well, I made sucky user interfaces that
>>> someone would need to rearrange in a manner that the marketing people
>>> approved of. So, as far as I go, UI layout always required asking for
>>> help and I can usually find someone to spiff up my programs pretty
>>> efficiently.
>>> On Oct 9, 2010, at 4:48 PM, Michael Taboada (AI5HF) wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I was wondering if anyone knew of an accessible way to develop for the
>>> iPhone.
>>> I could use apple's software, or I could use a third party software
>>> solution.
>>> I am running windows.
>>> Thanks,
>>> -Michael.
>>> AI5HF
>>> Skype: lilmike2
>>> Gmail: ai5hf.lilmike@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:ai5hf.lilmike@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> msn: ai5hf@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ai5hf@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> PC details:
>>> Intel quad core 2.66 ghz; 4 gb duel channel ddr2 ram; 1 TB harddrive.
>>> "The songs of the dead are the lamentations of the living." --
>>> Christopher Paolini, Eldest.
>>> "A world that contained a creature as amazing as that bumblebee was a
>>> world he wanted to live in." -- Christopher Paolini, Brisingr.

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