RE: iPhone development
- From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 10:16:35 -0400
Yeah you already know my feeling on extra computers Hmm I hope that stack
there in the corner missed the cat when it fell over.
I am getting really ticked at how you have to compile gtk programs with the
pkg-config crap. There has to be a better command line way. Oh well maybe
I will just break down and write a simple make file how quaint.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris Hofstader
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 8:40 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: iPhone development
Thanks Ken.
Tyler and one other have also volunteered to work on this stuff. When Susan,
my wife, gets back to Florida, she will ship the computer to Tyler as he
wants it - this will be 11/26 or so.
cdh
On Oct 12, 2010, at 9:35 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
> I will probably do an asm, gtk c and gtk c++ one and then who knows what
but
> Ubuntu is being a pain in my arse.
>
> ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
Hofstader
> Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 2:39 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: iPhone development
>
> Ken,
>
> I think the goal for an FB under GTK is actually all of the languages
> available for Windows FB.
>
> Because I spend virtually all of my time on fundraising, coordination and,
> along with some terrific folks at Gnome Foundation, Linux Foundation, etc.
> keeping the world of Gnome accessibility from imploding under the
tremendous
> pressures of Gnome 3, DBus, QT and other really gnarly problem sets, I
have
> had virtually no time to work on learning GTK and its accessibility
> components or I'd volunteer to do the assembly language and/or straight C
> myself as I think they may be fun.
>
> I'm just starting to hate life as no matter what I do, I get nastygrams
> regarding the things I don't do either because they ain't in my job
> description or because I haven't the time. I think I get more hate mail at
> FSF than I did at FS which I would have never believed. It's the
> accessibility circular firing squad again and I'm standing in the middle,
> blindfolded and juggling chainsaws...
>
> I would really appreciate any help on getting any of the FB programs
brought
> over to GTK and I do know that a free PC is little more than the toy in
the
> Happy Meal but some people are reticent to put a VM and a GNU/Linux distro
> on their main computer lest they lose their real work so a free one with
OS
> installed will help people avoid polluting their main computers with a
> different OS.
>
> cdh
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 11, 2010, at 4:37 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>
>> The problem is a free computer now day is like saying here is a Happy
> meal.
>> But If all you want is a GTK FB running in Linux that shouldn't be too
> hard
>> to do. Do you care what language it's done in?
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Chris
> Hofstader
>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:55 PM
>> To: Jamal Mazrui
>> Cc: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: iPhone development
>>
>> The student understood what the FB projects were all about but the
>> professor, not one who knows anything about accessibility, refused to let
>> her use the existing ones as the basis for her assignments in her
computer
>> languages class. I doubt the professor looked for or, for that matter,
> cared
>> about the reason FB exists at all.
>>
>> This is life in an International mob of volunteer hackers. The landscape
> is
>> always shifting and well intentioned individuals find that they cannot
> meet
>> commitments due to forces outside of their control.
>>
>> So, I continue to search for someone who can bring FB to GTK and the
Gnome
>> Accessibility API and went as far as to sweeten the deal by throwing in a
>> free computer that runs the Vinux distro of GNU/Linux really well.
>>
>> I'll go back to my cave now...
>>
>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 12:35 PM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
>>
>>> It sounds to me like whoever that person is, he or she has not been
truly
>> serious about contributing a fruit basket program. On the present web
> site
>> of the project
>>> http://FruitBasket.QuantumMyst.com
>>>
>>> the purpose of the project is explained and there is a link to the
>> specific criteria for a fruit basket program. For even easier reference,
> I
>> am pasting the text of that file below.
>>>
>>> While the current organization of the page may not be optimal, it is not
>> difficult to follow. There are clearly program samples that do not use
> the
>> unified code approach, and as mentioned, the criteria (pasted below)
makes
>> no mention of code structure.
>>
>>>
>>> Jamal
>>>
>>> [F[From the link entitled "Fruit Basket Demo criteria,
>>> "]
>>>
>>> hello friends,
>>>
>>> On the Blind Programming list (www.blindprogramming.com), we developed
>> specifications for a sample program with a graphical user interface (GUI)
>> that could be implemented in various languages. It became known as a
> fruit
>> basket program. The purpose is to help teach people how to code a GUI
>> program in a particular language. Someone considering the language can
>> examine the code and evaluate the syntax and other development steps
>> involved based on his or her own knowledge, skills, and preferences. By
>> running the program, one can also make observations as an end-user,
>> evaluating such aspects as the size, speed, and accessibility of the
>> program.
>>>
>>> The specifications for a fruit basket program are as follows:
>>> 1. The program is a GUI interface, or the equivalent with at least an
> edit
>> box, list box, and two buttons.
>>> 2. The user can type the name of a fruit, e.g., apple, in the edit box.
>>> 3. When the Add button is activated, the fruit is copied into the list
> box
>> and the edit box is cleared to be ready for another entry.
>>> 4. When the Delete button is activated, the currently focused fruit in
> the
>> list box, or basket, is removed.
>>> 5. For accessibility, static labels should be associated with the edit
> box
>> and list box, since these controls do not have captions like buttons.
>>> 6. Keyboard users will also appreciate a unique hot key for each
control.
>>> 7. Making Add the default button allows a fruit to be added by simply
>> pressing Enter after typing its name.
>>> 8. An error message alerts the user if Add is pressed without a fruit in
>> the edit box or Delete is pressed without a fruit in the list box.
>>>
>>> ** Important** please! annotate your program files, make text copies if
>> there not readable as such in there native format, add notes on easy to
> find
>> and use applications for compiling the project if you can and include the
>> text files, project files, and an compiled executable for your version of
>> the Fruit Basket Demo Project, in a zipped file for uploading to the
site.
>>>
>>> thank you, Inthaneelf, Jamal Mazrui, James Homme, Eunice Clicker, and
>> everyone else who have contributed to the fruit basket demo project.
>>>
>>> On 10/11/2010 10:21 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>>>> Jamal et al,
>>>>
>>>> I did not say that the single source file approach to some of the Fruit
>> Basket programs is essential to their value, I'm just a little frustrated
>> trying to find someone to port the baskets to a GNU/Linux, Gnome based
>> system. We have a call for volunteers out in all of our international
>> locales and in the US asking for help in this porting but we've no takers
>> and the one person we did have was stopped by her professor because he
> found
>> the code to be oddly organized.
>>>>
>>>> If someone can write up a few paragraphs describing in general terms
> what
>> FB is and why it is important, I'll get it up onto the FSF web site as
> soon
>> as I can. If you don't look at www.fsf.org much, you won't, therefore, be
>> able to see how rapidly we are improving it and an accessibility section
> is
>> under way but, except for our original statement, still not there but
will
>> be soon. Anyone who wants to write articles about FLOSS at on GNU/Linux
>> platforms (it's ok if they also run on Windows or Mac but they must also
>> work as well on free operating systems) should write to me off-line to
>> discuss topics of interest and how best to present them.
>>>>
>>>> If anyone out there wants to help port FB to a Gnome desktop, I can
send
>> them a pretty good computer that they can keep as their own once they
>> complete some subsection of FB in Gnome desktop.
>>>>
>>>> Currently, from Gnome Foundation, Linux Foundation, FSF and elsewhere,
>> the absolute highest priority is that we work with Gnome 3 as soon as it
>> ships. This requires that we make a major change to DBus which means that
>> it's really "under-the-hood" system hacking and lots of regression
testing
>> to make sure that Orca and other AT for Gnome weren't broken by one of
> these
>> new changes.
>>>>
>>>> Again, any help would be greatly appreciated. Getting a free computer
in
>> the bargain should also alleviate fears of damaging one's main machine by
>> polluting it with a GNU/Linux distro.
>>>>
>>>> Lastly, I will pay for shipping out of pocket for the computer in the
US
>> but I need to ask that anyone outside the country pay for shipping and
>> whatever customs charges come with taking receipt of a desktop computer.
>>>>
>>>> HH,
>>>> cdh
>>>>
>>>> PS: The computer cannot be shipped until 10/25 or so as it is in my
> house
>> in Florida and no one will be there until the twenty-fifth of this month.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 9:27 AM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There is absolutely nothing in the criteria for a fruit basket program
>> that says UI and other code need to be mixed. That is a design choice
> that
>> some have made, but there are other samples, e.g., Visual Studio
projects,
>> where UI and other code is separated. So, those folks should be
> encouraged
>> to submit programs that meet the criteria and separate the code and files
>> however they think is best. The criteria specify how the dialog should
>> behave, not how the underlying code should be structured.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jamal
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/10/2010 2:30 PM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>>>>>> Thanks Ken.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hadn't heard of Appcelerator but I'll look around for it and see
> what
>>>>>> I may be able to learn about it. It would certainly be convenient to
>> get
>>>>>> iPhone and Android all in one project. How accessible is it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know that Fruit Basket is intended to show blind people how to do
UI
>>>>>> without sighted help. I was just mentioning that I don't do a lot of
> UI
>>>>>> stuff as my UI ideas tend to suck and someone always needs to jump in
>>>>>> and help me out before shipping a program.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem with our friends in Venezuela didn't object to a blind
>>>>>> person writing UI code, they didn't like the entire program being
>> placed
>>>>>> in a single source file as that would make for a lot of difficulty
>>>>>> working on multi-hacker projects and generally more difficult to find
>>>>>> any specific item.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blind people should learn how to make GUI code but I am still willing
>> to
>>>>>> bet that the marketing department will want things rearranged as this
>> is
>>>>>> the issue even with sighted hackers. Personally, I think emacs has
the
>>>>>> greatest UI in the world so the average man on the street thinks I am
>>>>>> probably seriously mentally ill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to see FB for Gnome and for the Apple operating systems
>> but
>>>>>> no volunteers have come forward yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cdh
>>>>>> On Oct 10, 2010, at 1:39 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually you can also use Appcelerator and when using it under Mac
> you
>>>>>>> can actually code for IPhone and Android both at the same time.
>>>>>>> Remember though the fruit basket was originally designed to show how
>>>>>>> to make UI for blind people. Using a sited person to do it really
>>>>>>> doesn't count. That is why I have not done one already.
>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>> *From:* programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> <mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] *On Behalf Of *Chris
>>>>>>> Hofstader
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:09 PM
>>>>>>> *To:* programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> <mailto:programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: iPhone development
>>>>>>> To develop iPhone apps you are almost forced to use the xcode
>>>>>>> development system that ships with every Macintosh. I know a few
> blind
>>>>>>> people who use it with pretty good success. The hardest part, of
>>>>>>> course, is arranging controls in your UI as there is no accessible
> way
>>>>>>> to do this.
>>>>>>> When coding for iPhone, I use emacspeak as my editor and xcode as an
>>>>>>> IDE and get help from a sightie for layout issues.
>>>>>>> I thought of trying to find someone to help make a "fruit basket"
for
>>>>>>> OSX and iOS but haven't had any takers so far. I'm not even sure
that
>>>>>>> OSX or iOS permit putting all of the UI code in the same file as the
>>>>>>> rest of the program which is how many of the Fruit Basket programs
> are
>>>>>>> designed. Also, while it's possible to write iOS code in C or C++,
> for
>>>>>>> all intents and purposes, you are forced to use Objective C, an odd
>>>>>>> language that only Apple supports as far as I can tell. So, a fruit
>>>>>>> basket program for a single language (Objective C is preferred for
> OSX
>>>>>>> as well) might be something we can find someone to do. Of course, if
>>>>>>> you embed a WebKit control in your iOS program, you then need to
>>>>>>> follow the WCAG guidelines for the content you expose using it so
>>>>>>> JavaScript and some other things become important but doing an FB
>>>>>>> program would be silly as it is all described nicely in the WCAG and
>>>>>>> other W3C standards documents.
>>>>>>> I had thought I had a student in Venezuela who was going to make
> Fruit
>>>>>>> Basket ports for GNU/Linux systems running the Gnome desktop. She is
>>>>>>> taking a class called "Computer Languages" which, when I took it
back
>>>>>>> in 1980 or so, taught us 13 languages in 13 weeks and, as I saw it,
> it
>>>>>>> was a pretty major waste of time and, to this day, I've never seen
>>>>>>> anyone ask for Snobol/V, Wafter, Spitbol and a few of the others we
>>>>>>> had to learn back in the dark ages. Our Venezuelan student's
> professor
>>>>>>> liked the idea of the Fruit Basket for Gnome until he found files
> that
>>>>>>> contained the UI and the rest of the program as he thinks it is bad
>>>>>>> software engineering practice. Our student friend is doing all
> console
>>>>>>> programs instead and we're still looking for a volunteer to do the
FB
>>>>>>> port.
>>>>>>> I do not find asking for sighted help on UI layout to be a problem
> for
>>>>>>> me. When I could see perfectly well, I made sucky user interfaces
> that
>>>>>>> someone would need to rearrange in a manner that the marketing
people
>>>>>>> approved of. So, as far as I go, UI layout always required asking
for
>>>>>>> help and I can usually find someone to spiff up my programs pretty
>>>>>>> efficiently.
>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 2010, at 4:48 PM, Michael Taboada (AI5HF) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> I was wondering if anyone knew of an accessible way to develop for
> the
>>>>>>> iPhone.
>>>>>>> I could use apple's software, or I could use a third party software
>>>>>>> solution.
>>>>>>> I am running windows.
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> -Michael.
>>>>>>> AI5HF
>>>>>>> http://mtgames.org/
>>>>>>> http://u4u.be/
>>>>>>> Skype: lilmike2
>>>>>>> Gmail: ai5hf.lilmike@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:ai5hf.lilmike@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> msn: ai5hf@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ai5hf@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> PC details:
>>>>>>> Intel quad core 2.66 ghz; 4 gb duel channel ddr2 ram; 1 TB
harddrive.
>>>>>>> "The songs of the dead are the lamentations of the living." --
>>>>>>> Christopher Paolini, Eldest.
>>>>>>> "A world that contained a creature as amazing as that bumblebee was
a
>>>>>>> world he wanted to live in." -- Christopher Paolini, Brisingr.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
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