Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
- From: Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:01:29 -0500 (EST)
My statement about the job market is definately a generalization -- one
should look for ads in one's area to get a better sense of relevant
demand. C++ is also at the top of that list, but I definately would not
recommend that to a beginning programmer!
Java is a strong cross-platform language, of course. The difficulties in
accessibility, particularly on Windows, however, make me recommend Python
over it for a beginning programmer interested in cross-platform
development. I understand that part of the accessibility problems come
from the Java side and part come from the assistive technology side that
has not taken full advantage of the accessibility API that is available.
Beginners tend to be more comfortable with languages that look more like
a natural language, so punctuation symbols can be intimidating.
Sometimes, I find them unnecessary, e.g., C# and Perl require parentheses
after an 'if' keyword, but Python and Ruby do not. If one forgets a
paren or forgets to balance them, the code does not run.
I do recall your email about the disadvantages of Perl, as well as its
advantages. My biggest disappointment with Perl is the seeming
inability of its lead developers to deliver a modernized version. When
was Perl 6 first announced, 2000? There is not even a public alpha
available yet! This is years after treatises on how it was going to be
a superior language to others, one whose interpreter could even run
other languages.
Ruby has not been as bad, but I am still discouraged by the seeming
inability to deliver a 2.0 version with major improvements. As far as I
can tell, there is only one or two developers working on the core, and
the pace shows this.
Python, on the other hand, has an impressively organized and
collaborative team of developers and other community leaders who keep
pushing the language, extensions, and applications forward. I think one
should judge a language also by the community behind it. In that
respect, I find Python better than any other dynamic language, and
arguably better than others as well.
I agree that you have created a kind of interactive environment with
TextPad. One-liners at the command prompt are another example.
Thanks, by the way, for making your RSS program available in its
current form.
Jamal
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008, Octavian Rasnita wrote:
> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 21:26:21 +0200
> From: Octavian Rasnita <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>
> Oh my god! How could you dare to say that python's indentation requirement
> is unfriendly for the blind?
> Have you seen what the other list members told me when I told that?
>
> Because I told that python is accessible and with some more effort it can be
> used, but the indentation is not exactly friendly.
>
> But I don't understand why python is recommended for cross platform
> development. Is it better than Java for cross platform development? Does it
> run on more systems? (Because that is independent platform developement
> about).
> Or does it run on more systems than perl?
>
> Well, you told that the minimum punctuation is friendly, but this is not
> exactly true, but each one have his preferences for this.
> I think one of the things I don't like in python and VB is that they don't
> end the lines with a semicolon, to be more clear where the current line
> ends, and they also don't use braces, to be also more clear where a block
> begins and ends.
>
> And I really don't have anything with python in this respect. I also don't
> like ruby for this reason even though you told that ruby accepts those
> semicolons, but they are not required, so many programmers will surely skip
> them.
>
> Well, I read better what you said, and it is true, you told that this is a
> preference of beginners, so it might be truefor beginners... I don't know.
>
> But I also agree with you that case insensitivity is friendly.
>
> However, I told you that I have never found util an interactive environment
> when you done the one for perl. I really don't know what I could use such a
> thing, so in my opinion it is useless.
>
> But I am thinking that my text editor that can run any perl code could be
> considered very well such an environment that can get parameters from STDIN
> and print to STDERR and STDOUT, and it is also very accessible, and I can
> check and modify the code I write in previous lines... and maybe that's why
> I don't feel the need for another testing environment.
>
> Anyway, you've started with "If a new programmer wants to maximize the
> chance of getting paid", without other specifications, but it could depend
> on many criteria, one of the most important beeing the location of that
> programmer, because the demand for programming languages are not the same in
> all countries.
>
> In my country there are no very many that cares about python, or perl, or
> ruby, however most of the jobs are for PHP programmers and then for Java and
> C# and there still are some for C++ also.
>
> So the list member that put the original question should have also told more
> about what he wants to do finally, because otherwise we bang our heads to
> give the best solution.
> And anyway, I would have found some disadvantages for any programming
> language. :-)
>
> (I like to do that because I don't like that absolutely every time all the
> people present only the advantages, while we all know that there are
> disadvantages in every programming language. Do you remember that long list
> of disadvantages of perl I sent to the list some years ago?)
>
> Octavian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 8:47 PM
> Subject: Re: ewby on programming need some tips and tricks
>
>
> > For whatever it's worth, my present perspective on these topics is as
> > follows.
> >
> > If a new programmer wants to maximize the chance of getting paid
> > employment, I suggest lerning Java, C#, or PHP. If the primary interest
> > is developing web sites, I recommend PHP. If Windows desktop
> > applications, I recommend either C# or Visual Basic .NET, depending on
> > personal preference about syntax. If cross-platform development is the
> > highest priority, I recommend Python.
> >
> > Regarding Python, I think its indentation requirement is unfriendly to
> > blind programmers, particularly speech-without-braille users. Other
> > aspects of a language should also be considered, however, in judging how
> > friendly a language is. Clean syntax with a minimum of punctuation
> > symbols often makes a language more friendly to beginners. In the
> > languages I have mention so far, Python and Visual Basic are the
> > friendliest in that respect. Case sensitivity also makes a difference to
> > friendliness. Visual Basic is the friendliest in that respect, since the
> > other languages mentioned are case sensitive. An interactive environment
> > for testing small pieces of code is another aspect of friendliness.
> > Python is the best of the languages mentioned in that respect.
> >
> > For anyone interested in a research project, I think the topic of what
> > language is easiest for a beginning blind programmer is worth
> > investigating. Without empirical evidence, it is difficult to judge how
> > to weigh the different factors that affect the friendliness of a language.
> > Let me encourage any student or professional researchers on this list to
> > consider designing a study that may shed more light on this.
> >
> > Jamal
> >
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
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